• Concerns rise as Neuralink fails to provide evidence of brain implant success, raising safety and transparency questions.
• Controversy surrounds Neuralink’s lack of data on surgical capabilities and alarming treatment of monkeys with brain implants.
• While Neuralink touts achievements, experts question true innovation and highlight developments in other brain implant projects.
Imo Musk is going to struggle in this space. He’s no stranger to opening companies in highly regulated industries, but the medical device industry is a whole different level. The government can easily prevent him from selling anything if his company isn’t forthcoming with data, and if he starts mutilating people, civil courts aren’t going to care if they signed a waiver if that waiver was signed based on false expectations built on incomplete or false data by the company
Plus, he likes to pretend he’s an expert on the industries of the companies he runs. That’s already potentially dangerous with Tesla and Space X, but in this case his hubris is very directly dangerous to the people receiving his services.
The difference is with Tesla and Space X he has actual experts doing the work, with Neuralink he gets the worst of the crop - no successful or ethical medical professional is going to want to work with him on this.
Teslas are already directly dangerous to his customers but our society is numb to traffic violence so people don’t care as much as they should. But “full self-driving” has already killed people.
Edit: removed “a lot” because while I suspect it is true, it remains unproven.
But
“full self-driving”false advertising has already killed a lot of people.Sure, that’s what I was referring to. But I’m realizing not everyone is as aware of the whole story here.
“full self-driving” has already killed a lot of people.
There’s only one death linked to FSD beta and even he was driving drunk.
In a recent interview, Rossiter said he believes that von Ohain was using Full Self-Driving, which — if true — would make his death the first known fatality involving Tesla’s most advanced driver-assistance technology
Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit
However there’s approximately 40 accidents that have led to serious injury or death due to the use of the less advanced driver assist system “autopilot”.
You’re right, I was conflating the two. However, I suspect there are more cases than just this one due to Tesla’s dishonesty and secrecy.
(Why would the human’s inebriation level matter if the vehicle is moving autonomously?)
Because it’s not autonomous, nor “full self driving”. It’s a glorified adaptive cruise control. I don’t think it’s even in the L3 category… (I’m not the biggest fan of the autonomy “levels” classification but it’s an ok reference for this).
Tesla would just get up and lie to the public like that?
Agreed. Also while it’s impossible to say in any individual case I suspect people might be more likely to drive while inebriated if they believe the autopilot will be driving for them.
This kind of thinking is why these accidents happen. The goal of autonomous driving is for it to one day be better driver than the best human driver, but this technology is still in its infancy and requires an attentive driver behind the wheel. Even Teslas tell you this when you engage these systems.
Source, please.
Tesla’s secrecy around its safety data makes it hard to do a robust analysis but here’s a decent overview: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-autopilot-crashes-elon-musk/
What if we compare that to human related injuries?
I bet more people were killed by other human drivers today. Probably another right now…
I’m not excusing lack of tech safety, but I think there’s a double standard not in context.
So I hear what you’re saying—what we really want to measure is deaths avoided versus those caused. But it’s a difficult thing to measure how many people the technology saved. So while I’m cognizant of this issue, I’m not sure how to get around that. That said, the article mentions that Tesla drivers are experiencing much higher rates of collisions than other manufacturers. There could be multiple factors at play here, but I suspect the autopilot (and especially Tesla’s misleading claims around it) is among them.
Also, while there may be an unmeasured benefit in reducing collisions, there may also be an unmeasured cost in inducing more driving. This has not been widely discussed in this debate but I think it is a big problem with self-driving technology that only gets worse as the technology improves.
Yeah, I’m hoping though it progresses to the point that we can reasonably reduce vehicle related incidents.
Between drunk driving, texting, and generally not paying attention, I’d love more people using automated driving if it became statistically safer.
Some people are scared to fly even thought it’s statistically safer. They don’t want to be the rare happening. Unless Boeing, then check your doors…
Edit, I also agree you can’t easily track or correlate things that didn’t happen with all the factors here.
That didn’t work out for Elizabeth Holmes either.
She exploited and got rich off rich people though, like SBF, so she went down. Musk exploited and got rich off the working class and apartheid exploitation in SA. So that’s ok. He’s one of them.
Elon is a dirty manipulative liar out for power and all the money. It saddens me that there are people stupid enough to trust this guy with their bodies to let them implant a chip whose main purposed is to make him even richer.
I think the government will be on his side
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Finally some news about the first human trial.
The part about them not issuing regular progress reports since day 1 (a month or so ago) is, how these doctors put it, concerning.
Apart from that, I think jumping from monkeys to human experiments when the success rate is low feels either rush work or some high person in charge decided to go all-or-nothing.
or some high person in charge decided to go all-or-nothing
I don’t see what Elon’s drug use and increasingly irratic decision-making have to to with this.
Hahahaha
“move fast and break
thingspeople”Agreed. And seems wild to allow that kind of coercion from powerful people to move into the human body stage without air tight everything.
I think it is unethical to test this technology on anyone who does not consent. It is too invasive and damaging. Our testing framework should be revised for brain interfaces.
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Damn, and no.
I love how no one is ever going to start calling it “X” because it’s just dumb. It will forever be “X-formerly-Twitter”.
I like “Elon’s Twitter”
That was my thought when I started reading the piece. “Are we just going to call it XFT?”
The platform formerly called Prince
You know you can just use twitter anyway, right?
Nobody wants to use Twitter.
I’ve been online since the days of dialup and never signed up for a Twitter account. It’s just not worthy of my time
Been here since Europe got flooded with AOL CDs, same.
AOL CDs? You mean those cd-shaped cup coasters?
Sure, but that disregards the fact that it’s owned by a fascist prick.
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I really wonder about the Doctors associated with this. How are they squaring things with their Hippocratic oath? This just seems really close to the ethical line, maybe over it. Nothing about how musk is treating this surprises me. But is everyone working on this also an unethical twat? Kind of scary to think that might be true.
In 1973 the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the Hippocratic Oath saying it didn’t cover the latest developments in medical practice.
I’m just… gonna go scream into a pillow in the corner now.
The Helsinki declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Helsinki
Is the reference for health sciences these days.
This appears to be more geared towards experimentation. Super interesting and more relevant to the article for sure though!
There’s nothing here that would violate it anyway. These people are literally working on tech to help quadriplegics. Even this article is mostly just “I wish they were more open about their research”, which is true of basically every research hospital in the world.
These people are literally working on tech to help quadriplegics.
I mean… That’s the claim, but there’s no real explanation on how their implant could help quadriplegics more so than the current computer brain interface we’ve had for +10 years.
Computer brain interfaces have been around for years, the only novel idea is making it into a permanent implant. That being said, novel doesn’t necessarily mean good.
Are other forms of BCI not permanent? I was kinda under the impression that they were, and the only upside of neuralink was the form factor, and maybe trying to bring down the costs by automating it, or whatever the idea was, but it the others aren’t permanent, that would kind of make more sense. Though, I kind think it being temporary would kind of be an upside, for the most part, since that would prevent scar tissue buildup on the brain, and other potential problems like that.
Are other forms of BCI not permanent?
No, typically they’re just sensors on a cranial harness.
Though, I kind think it being temporary would kind of be an upside, for the most part, since that would prevent scar tissue buildup on the brain, and other potential problems like that.
Yes, there’s no real advantage to making it permanent other than convenience. However this convenience is imo massively outweighed by the very real possibility of meningitis. It’s crazy that they got approval to transect the blood brain barrier for an implant. Other implants do this, but that risk is being weighed against things like potentially deadly seizures, not mild convenience.
No, typically they’re just sensors on a cranial harness.
Do you mean EEG stuff, or are you referring to like, inter-cranial implants, which I don’t know shit about?
Yes, there’s no real advantage to making it permanent other than convenience. However this convenience is imo massively outweighed by the very real possibility of meningitis. It’s crazy that they got approval to transect the blood brain barrier for an implant. Other implants do this, but that risk is being weighed against things like potentially deadly seizures, not mild convenience.
Do you mean counteracting potentially deadly seizures, or causing them? Also, there’s probably too many other problems to list about the technology generally, but since you seem like you know what you’re talking about, could you give me like, a kind of general overview on BCI, or your opinion? Maybe like, challenges, what you see as being the most promising stuff, that sort of thing?
Do you mean EEG stuff,
For the most part, yes. If we’re just needing enough input to control something like a mouse, then there’s no real reason to go with an invasive implant. You can pull the same data from eeg and ocular tracking.
Do you mean counteracting potentially deadly seizures, or causing them?
It would be counteracting seizures.
BCI, or your opinion? Maybe like, challenges, what you see as being the most promising stuff, that sort of thing?
The problem with BCI is that there’s just not a lot of uses for them. The quadriplegic community is already small, and their range of cognitive ability runs the gamut. So creating a cbi that is useful to the entire patient population is going to be tough. The largest obstacle would be patient education, and training care takers.
This is part of the reason I discount Musks interest in BCI as medical device, there’s just no money in it. I think his only real motivation is to sell it to gullible wealthy people.
Another inherent problem with BCI is that it’s not seamless. It takes a lot more concentration to operate a mouse with your mind than it does with your body. People don’t really understand how much of their movement is handled by their spinal chord instead of the brain.
People have a hard time utilizing interactive spaces when we separate them from physical input. Which is why a lot of people struggle with VR,. When your physical senses like proprioception don’t reflect the interactions the same as our visual senses we can become physically ill.
Ah yes, the classic “unless you think it will have a long-term benefit to someone else” exception to “do no harm”. I always forget about that part. /s
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The Hippocratic Oath is not a legally binding oath, and many doctors are not required to take this oath or any oath for that matter. Basically, at the end of the day, oaths only matter to the people who have the strength of character to hold to them no matter the cost and most people do not have that strength of character. Oaths mean nothing to those people when it comes down to it, it’s just a thing that you said once, nothing more.
Oh I know all that, but still…
Can’t wait to see the medical drama where one doctor says “you took an oath, god dammt!” And for the other to reply “nope”
There are way less extreme example of doctors just fucking things up for a bag of money.
And more in general, humans. Imagine if Clarence Thomas had taken medicine instead of law when he was young
But is everyone working on this also an unethical twat? Kind of scary to think that might be true
People with the Power to do cruel things always find cruel people to do their bidding. Especially when they can justify it with science or it’s “for the better of humanity”. Even if every rational out stander is horrified by their doings.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there somehow were a cover-up of safety and efficacy of these devices.
People are still people. Doctors are just as susceptible to compromising their ethics as everyone else, the only difference is that they probably have a higher bribe threshold.
Ethics only matters when there’s an effort to enforce it. The Hippocratic oath is just a reason your employer can fire you for making risky decisions. It means nothing if nobody holds you to it.
If you’re a doctor working for Neuralink, nobody will expect anything of you but to push the project forward as quickly as possible. For years you only work with monkeys, and when they do finally put a human in the O.R. it’s someone who signed away all their rights and accepted all risks to install experimental brain chips. At that moment, that human patient becomes the single most important subject in the entire experiment.
Of course you do it. You’re getting paid more money than you ever have in your life to do it, and the entire system is designed to protect you so long as you do what the boss says.
Well, it’s possible that it was a robot doctor, kinda doubt they took a Hippocratic oath
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Stupid article as it implies that doctors are concerned for a specific reason related to the subject’s health but it’s just background about this shitty experiment and how it can be dangerous. Regardless, I can’t believe someone volunteered for this and am unfortunately expecting documented issues in the future.
Remember how they couldn’t get the cyber truck to not rust? Or the bullet proof windows to work? Or how the milage for most Tesla’s was impossible, so people thought their cars were broken, and instead of either confessing or fixing the mileage they created an elaborate scheme to cancel appointment so people couldn’t get their batteries looked at? These are the people you trusted to put a chip in your brain…
I’m not using it, might as well sacrifice for the good of the many
That’s fine, but this ain’t it. There are many stories of important and heroic acts of medical martyrdom, but they all share one important thread: the scientists involved knew what they were doing. This, this isn’t that. Another dead won’t improve anything here, it’ll just result in unnecessary pain.
Yeah, I support mmi, not necessarily neuralink. None of the others get the recognition, and therefore funding, to make any real progress though.
I think it would be a lot more reasonable to expect undocumented issues. They have a lot to lose and it’s controlled by a billionaire. As if they’re not going to try to cover it up.
They will try to cover it up for sure. IMO Either it will “silently end” after myriad health issues or there will be big public exposures.
I doubt you’ll hear any docs about failures. I think that’s what this article is about? I.e. a lack of transparency?
If my option was never move again and this would let me control a computer then I wouldn’t care about the risk
The results are in. You now feel as if you are constantly moving. You aren’t, but it sure feels that way. Forever.
I’m sure the guy who had a pig heart transplant thought similar. He died less than a year after.
i’d do it for money. Not much to fuck up with my brain
So the gov wants to claim the FDA did not regulate mifepristone hard enough, but this is perfectly fine. What a world.
“The government” doesn’t want to argue that. Some idiot politicians do.
The courts gave the idiots an injunction, so while you are right they are not exactly claiming it, they are claiming it is likely true.
And the courts are (a part) of the gvt last time I checked.
Claiming the schizophrenic US govt WANTS anything is dubious. Most of their attention is focused on fighting each other
As I said, what a world.
I still can’t forget the Monkeys.
JFC
Additional veterinary reports show the condition of a female monkey called “Animal 15” during the months leading up to her death in March 2019. Days after her implant surgery, she began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason; a symptom of pain or infection, the records say. Staff observed that though she was uncomfortable, picking and pulling at her implant until it bled, she would often lie at the foot of her cage and spend time holding hands with her roommate. Animal 15 began to lose coordination, and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.”
So they fuckin shredded the poor girl’s brain.
That’s heartbreaking.
Yeah. Gut wrenching too.
To think humans cause such pain to other sentient beings due to hubris…
I don’t find it shocking in the slightest. Someone like Musk would happily burn everything down if it meant he’d get his own way.
I’m wondering how this got IRB approval. I’ve had to get it before and it’s not easy. From the sounds of everything everyone involved needs to have a lifetime ban on animal or human testing.
“IRB? What’s that?”
-Elon Musk and researchers being told what to say
Damn… I’ve heard that it was bad but I’ve never read it until now…
;-;
Wait til you find out about animal testing at large.
Fall of the house of usher shit 💔
The subject is hunched over and drooling inside a padded cell, mumbling “we hope this email finds you well”, over, and over, and over again…
Yeah, I wouldn’t want monkeylink in my head if it was done by musk’s people. I’d rather have an expert neurosurgeon and the ones I know, who work in deep brain stimulation, they wrote off neuralink as bad tech a decade ago.
Writing off a huge research project you know nothing about before it’s even started is a clear sign that their opinion is worthless.
Musk has hired incredibly well educated people, I don’t blame you for hating him but that doesn’t tarnish the quality of anyone else
Educated does not mean skilled.
No but they’re also very skilled, look at who’s on the team they’re incredibly well respected in their fields.
You hate Elon that’s fine, it doesn’t mean everyone even tangentially related to anything with his name attached is bad.
You’re just making stuff up now
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Neuralink founder Elon Musk claimed this week that the first human to receive one of his company’s heavily scrutinized brain implants was already able to control a mouse cursor with their mind.
“[Neuralink is] only sharing the bits that they want us to know about,” Sameer Sheth, a neurosurgeon who specializes in implanted neurotechnology at the Baylor College of Medicine, told Nature.
Leaked documents detailed how the implants resulted in a myriad of grotesque injuries, including rupturing a monkey’s brain and causing severe cerebral swelling.
A relevant detail that raises questions about Neuralink’s surgical capabilities is another report of a monkey with a botched brain implant.
“A human controlling a cursor is nothing new,” Bolu Ajiboye, a brain computer interface researcher at Case Western Reserve University, told Nature.
Meanwhile, other brain implant projects have allowed fully paralyzed patients to communicate through a digital avatar using only their mind, or to control life-changing robotic prosthetics.
The original article contains 480 words, the summary contains 154 words. Saved 68%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Does this remind anyone else of Theranos?
Somewhat, but theranos at least didn’t do brain surgery. This is theranos with far higher stakes
And way more obviously vaporware
Does this remind anyone else of House of Usher?
I’m over here concerned for all of Neuralink’s patients.
Is this gonna be like that Raelian clone baby?
I love seeing references to the Raelians in the wild! What a bonkers cult they are. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raël.
promote a liberal ethical system with a strong emphasis on sexual experimentation.
Raël is fucking anyone and anything he can get his hands on.
Oh no shit.
Anyway
