Tell that to the tankies. I’m tired of communism being associated with them.
I stick to the original plan: moneyless, classless, and STATE-less. 🏴
You don’t know your Marx? socialism-transition-communism
Marx, therefore, further refined the concept of a “transition society” and introduced the idea that the development of communist society would take place in two phases. In the first stage, “socialism” as he called it, the commune state was still necessary both to defeat all attempts at counter-revolution and to reconstruct the international economic system on an egalitarian and planned basis.
Marx was too idealistic. He didn’t account for what happens when you put people into power of this “dicatorship of the proletariat”. Most people who get into power are not going to willingly give up power. You’ll end up with self-proclaimed communist countries that are either stuck in this transition phase indefinitely, or end up abandoning it in favor of state capitalism.
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Ah, I see you think yourself an expert on Marx. When he said this was he not meaning that instead of the people being under the dictatorship of a small privileged class of capitalists (see the plutocracy of many capitalist nations) he wanted the entirety of the people, in particular the working class to have control over their own lives, labor, and common interests?
Idk, but it sounds like you think you have read more of Marx’s literature and understand Marx better?
Or perhaps you are arguing that power will always be abused by individuals and thus we shouldn’t resist it and those that currently hold it in the form of capital…
in which case…
I never expect perfection in a human society, but I know for damn certain we can do better than what we do now and the improvements we can make are towards a more equitable society best expressed by socialist and communist thinkers alike.
I’m saying that the transition phase being authoritarian is a mistake. Power always corrupts people, and the only way to make sure a worker’s revolution doesn’t end up failing is to implement a democratic transition government. Everyone gets a vote, and can run for and hold office. And anyone who has ever owned or managed a large bussiness or has ever accumulated a net worth of one million USD (or equivalent amount in other currencies) or more is banned from holding office. Worker’s rights should be entrenched into a constitution, and cannot be redefined unless 3/4 of the people agrees on it.
That’s how I think it should be. Not some “communist party” that would become the new bourgeoisie as soon as the old one is eliminated.
Marx: the only moral revolution is my revolution
Right side should read tankies, not communists.
“Communists”
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Away with this anarchist nonsense!
To be honest, they are more communist than capitalist countries.
Every country is a mixed economy. Capitalism/Communism as ideology is dumb (like most ideologies). The closest to a fully capitalist country was probably Somalia in the 90s.
How dare you make this not black and white!
I wish everyone would embrace this view so we could start talking implementation details instead of the endless ideological warfare. These capitalists and communists might as well just make a fucking church out of it already, so much dogma.
I have gotten into it with tankies on lemmy.ml on this topic at length. If you are only criticizing historical communism or historical capitalism then you are guaranteed to be fighting a strawman. These ideologies are not even fixed or singular even within the source material, much less in practice. Yet so many people seem unable or unwilling to even engage on conversation about first principles if it doesn’t cleanly fit inside their geopolitical head cannon.
Maybe, but are they more communist than they are capitalist?
If you’re talking about China, no, not really. If you’re talking about everyone else… depends… I’d say mostly.
You can’t be “more communist-er” than something - you either are or you aren’t.
Yes you can. You could organize certain aspects/fields of the economy differently, injecting communist ideas into otherwise capitalist countries. So a country where everything is subject to a “free”, capitalist market could be calles less communist than a country, where for example the development and maintenance of public infrastructure is organized and funded by a government, be it democratic or authoritarian.
The stance that there is only pure capitalism or pure communism is propaganda used by both sides in order to prevent reforms.
injecting communist ideas into otherwise capitalist countries.
No, you can’t. What you are describing is merely using faux-leftist ideas to protect capitalism from itself by throwing more scraps at the working class - that is all.
propaganda used by both sides in order to prevent reforms.
“Reform” is how capitalists protect their power and privilege from working-class revolt. “Reform” is always used to protect the status quo from desperately needed radical change. “Reform” almost never infringes upon the power and privilege of capitalist elites. “Reform” is a vital tool in the wealthy’s arsenal when it comes to class warfare.
“Reform” is not change - it is used to prevent change.
LMAO red fash isn’t more communist than northern Europe
What is red flash?
Name five.
Name five what? Things that make communist countries more communist than capitalist countries?
Just 5 communist countries. I can easily name 25 capitalist countries but only 5 communist countries would be enough for me to shut up.
Truly communist countries? As in perfect communism? That doesn’t exist, as well as truly capitalist countries, that doesn’t exist as well.
I’d say the US is close to perfectly capitalist, if you have enough money you can just rent legislators and call that “lobbying” (as opposed to renting legislators and callying it “bribing” or “corruption”, which isn’t much better tbf).
The US is very good at playing the democracy/capitalism game. Democracy can’t be sustained by a capitalist economic system by the reasons you pointed out. Once money is involved in the mix, there is no democracy. You can buy everything with money.
I’d say the US is close to perfectly capitalist
Lol! What would “perfect capitalism” even look like? I’d say the only people who even imagines a “perfect capitalism” are magical capitalists like (so-called) anarcho-capitalists and objectivists - and the level of brain-rot you have to suffer from to buy into that kind of sixteen-dimensional logic-pretzel is next-to lethal.
most “communist” countries is just socialist it is a simple misunderstanding
Saying a state is Communist is shorthand for asserting that it’s on the path to achieving Communism. It’s an uncharted path with many obstacles so just saying “X government did this bad thing therefore it’s not communist/socialist” is very unhelpful, and it really only makes any sort of sense in the context of arguing on the internet
It’s an uncharted path
No, it’s not. This is thoroughly charted territory. It just inevitably leads to more capitalism.
