[I originally posted this in chapotraphouse, but it was deleted for being “pro-cop” even though that very much wasn’t the case. (I believe PSL was actually involved in organizing the protest if I’m not mistaken.) The mod that deleted it openly broke the sectarian rule too.]
Been seeing a lot of people hating on what the protest marshals did during the pro-Gaza protests at the DNC and I feel they definitely did the right thing. Instigating stuff like going up against the cops under the guise of “revolutionary” action just gets a lot of people arrested and doesn’t accomplish anything.
EDIT: Users who were present at the protests have said, counter to what is claimed in the screenshot, that the protest marshals did NOT call for the police. Thank you for clearing this up, comrades!
Nah I’m with you. I’ve been at actions in the past where a faction of people start pushing for intense escalation in the heat of the moment, and it’s never sat right with me. What’s the desired outcome? Optics?
Pushing people who aren’t ready or trained in any way to risk getting brutalized by the cops (and then potentially felonies after it’s all said and done) for no real outcome seems stupid and adventurist, and that’s what this smells like to me. People getting the shit kicked out of them and facing charges will do a lot to de-activate them and the people around them, which is directly counterproductive.
Maybe this makes me a LARPer or some shit but I was really hoping to see less peaceful demonstration and more “bricks through the convention center windows”
I wanted the protestors to make it so difficult and unsafe to be inside the convention that they were unable to continue
There’s a genocide happening and the people committing it were inside that building. Draw your own conclusions on how that might’ve ended in a just world.
I (and a lot of the groups that planned this march) would probably agree. If you look at that list you will see a lot of groups that aren’t committed in principle to only nonviolent actions. But they made a strategic decision to have a large demonstration on the first day of the convention and they executed the plan. You’re not going to get 17k people to come out for bricks through windows simply because the libs won’t show and neither will the people who can’t afford to get arrested
Yeah like I was hoping to see things on the level of the George Floyd protests, or Jan 6 but good.
It feels like the student encampments got both more attention and more actual concessions and those were in places that should’ve been incredibly easy to ignore, whereas this was where the people with the power actually were.
Maybe I just fundamentally think having a large peaceful demonstration instead of a smaller non-peaceful one was a bad decision
But I’m not there, who am I to judge, I’m just armchair quarterbacking protests
I think it’s fine to disagree with the overall strategy, but they did plan and execute it effectively. What I take issue with is the people (including in this thread) in high dudgeon to demand that the organizers allow contingents of wreckers to hijack the action. Nobody was prevented from planning more radical actions, only from using this one as cover.
Are you saying that because one org got the permits no other groups are allowed to be there on the same day? Because then the best way to prevent any real action is to plan ‘peaceful protests’ at any event someone might want to do more at.
Nobody was prevented from planning a separate action on the same day or on one of the other days of the convention. Wonder why these mysterious other groups you’re referencing didn’t just do that
One org in the sense that it was one planned event. Sorry its a coalition of groups that all got their own permits.
Youre right, they should have made their own direct action facebook event and got their own permit if they wanted to do anything outside of those in charge. Turning people over to the cops is important because they didnt listen to the leaders of the coalition.
Youre right, they should have made their own direct action facebook event and got their own permit if they wanted to do anything outside of those in charge.
So you’re saying the only way these “groups” (who are they again? I don’t believe you’ve said) can operate is by hijacking someone else’s planned event. Interesting
Turning people over to the cops is important because they didnt listen to the leaders of the coalition.
I don’t endorse that and it didn’t happen
don’t like snitches
Yeah, me neither
The approved-route protest where protestors mustn’t get too close TO A FUCKING FENCE or else the cops need to be called
I feel like both your positions are valid and this discourse is as old as time, but this person on twitter is making the optics argument.
The optics are there’s a fucking ongoing genocide and we’re causing it. People have the right to do whatever they think will stop it. There’s no right way to protest.
The only right way to protest is the effective way
So not a peaceful march that doesn’t even get that close to the convention?
Effectiveness of protest can only really be judged after the protest. One constant is that the less disruptive a protest is, the less effective it is though.
Non-violent protest isn’t necessarily undisruptive, but “peaceful” protest where you avoid disrupting anything is fruitless. It’s only really effective when your sole goal is to build awareness and your organization can’t take the hit of a large portion of it’s membership being arrested or detained.
Once a movement has grown past the need for awareness, it needs to begin engaging in only disruptive forms of protest. A combination of violent and non-violent depending on the circumstance.
If getting too close to the DNC’s fence is “wrecker activity” and “adventurism” now, then what’s it going to be in a few years?
“Protesting in public is adventurism! Don’t you know a quiet inside protest is the respectable thing to do now?”
I mean, they wanted to confront the police head-on and implicate a bunch of people in the process. It isn’t just “going up to the fence” lol
The issue is that in the US it’s gotten to the point where being too close to a cop is “confrontation,” and protestors in the US keep ceding more ground each time. You’re going to end up in a situation where any form of civil disobedience is considered “too confrontational”
Even MLK’s civil disobedience was seen as “too confrontational.” People threw a shitfit over sit-ins, freedom riders, bus boycotts, and the Million Man March lol
It’s only not too confrontational if it’s quiet and out of the way and able to be ignored completely
@SxarletRed@twitter.com is the kind of person who would have taken down the tents and moved them off the quad in compliance with campus police, for the sake of “keeping activists safe”.
Fighting the police in a position they’ve got extremely well-fortified is silly, but turning on anyone who wants to do that is ten times worse.
I mean they actually went to the encampments, posted about what they saw and supported them, so your analogy doesn’t work lol
“Nooooooo you’re ruining my designated pressure outlet where I get a feeling of catharsis from doing something purely performative! How dare you give people a practical introduction to escalation, that wasn’t in the plan!”
Nobody called the cops. There were 17k people there because it was planned as a peaceful march by a coalition of groups and those groups worked to keep it peaceful. People brought their kids. You’re not going to get these numbers at for violent confrontation with the police.
Both sides sucked. The planned protest sucked because it was far too passive and the adventurists sucked because they tried to hijack another protest instead of doing their own thing.
The planned protest sucking:
It’s not going to accomplish a single thing outside of “raising awareness” for the simple fact that it’s not militant enough. One easy litmus test is to ask whether the pigs actually feel threatened by the demonstration and the very easy answer is that they do not feel threatened whatsoever. They see it as easy overtime pay. The pigs are laughing it up to the bank as they cash their fat overtime paychecks.
The adventurists sucking:
It’s very obvious they tried hijacking the peaceful demonstration because they lack numbers. They have <30 people, and obviously, you’re not going to accomplish much with that little people. That’s less than a platoon of troops. This is pathetic in its own way since the adventurists tried to use the peace demonstrators as cannon fodder and when their adventurism inevitably fails because they lack numbers, the adventurists can always quietly slip away as the pigs beat the shit out of the cannon fodder that didn’t sign up to be militant.
It’s the classic dilemma. The numerous demonstrators lack militancy and the few militants lack numbers.
I just don’t understand why the marshals actively stopped them and helped the cops ID them instead of keeping them away from the rest of the protest. It’s all about the diversity of tactics for these organizers until someone tries to do something effective, and if there wasn’t active peace policing or infantile organizers “leading” maybe there could’ve been more genuine unrest that was much more unpredictable to the DNC attendees at the very least. You are right in that the action is adventurist but I have so much more empathy with them than the organizers that think peaceful protests are anything but a spit in the face to the gravity of the situation
oh my god they actually snitched? fucking worms. luckily now that the unseemly “adventurist” element has been quashed, the fascists will have no choice but to listen to our chanting!
The marshals didn’t help the cops ID people
Kettling and restricting the movement of protesters in the direct line of site of kkkops does help them ID you, and shit like this would be truly unacceptable to a marshal trying to keep comrades safe
Hold on I’ve got to go find those goalposts you moved
Helping the cops id people is not an incorrect statement though? They’re helping the cops contain the protest, letting them stand back and do their job where theyre inevitably IDing people especially the people the marshalls are physically singling out for doing “bad protesting”??? Shows a lot you care more about the technical definition of ID-ing than the overall evidence towards collaboration with fascist cops
Shows a lot you care more about the technical definition of ID-ing than the overall evidence towards collaboration with fascist cops
Yeah, I’ll call out fedjacketing when I see it. If you disagree with the tactics you can just say so rather than trying to smear people
It’s not smearing, I’m calling out individual actions that are collaborative with cops. I genuinely believe it’s because americans are generally fascists with more sympathy towards cops and peace keepers than the victims of genocide and those that know we need to do much more to stop it. Also, as a movement with a history of infiltration and co-optation when did you get the idea in your head that fedjacketing is a bad thing?
I think this really sealed the deal for me. I have been struggling all week internally about not getting out to these protests. Maybe this is the moment. Maybe I should be there. Maybe I can make a difference this time. Maybe this is the one. Yeah I’m tired as hell. Yeah all the other major actions I’ve done over the years have accomplished absolutely fucking nothing. But maybe this time. This could be important. This could mean something.
Oh, we aren’t even getting too close to the fence, because “it’s not that kind of action?” Oh the marshals would rather work with the cops than allow a minor escalation? Okay then. So it’s an action fully within the rules. Those are historically super effective, when you just walk and yell where nobody can hear you and make no impact at all except some minor footnote in the local paper about how you did the thing. Great job folks really made an impact by completely and utterly following the rules.
I’ll save my energy for the next one. This one is clearly meaningless.
Thanks OP for making me feel validated in my decision to stay home from this nonsense
It explains why I haven’t seen any fucking news about them that’s for sure
Like, I specifically seek out clips and interviews and news about these kinds of actions and I haven’t seen shit
“A bunch of people quietly do their thing out of sight” doesn’t really bring in a headline
The student encampments got both more attention and more actual concessions and those should’ve been super easy to ignore. This should’ve been impossible.
And I went out to some of those and helped out. Those felt like they were impactful and those were definitely protests that were out of bounds. Those are the only ones that get the goods.
Most of the people I’ve met at the encampments got nothing materially changed and felt like they won when biden dropped out. They still condemn hamas, and now condemn people that don’t want to vote for kamala because you’re anti-black and homophobic (lots of queer once friends are now happy and PROUD to be pro-genocide fascists in my blue state). I really feel like these imperial core protests especially the ones centering the particularly privledged (new york college students) are there to give an illusion that we’re helping so when shaprio gets dropped in favor of walz or in the future when hamas eliminates israel we can say our tactics won out because we somehow weakened the zionist entity by going camping for a few days. IMO the definition of controlled resistance going off of the great exodus of anti-imperialist-curious becoming full blown fascist democrats that’s happened since Kamala’s became the nominee and the general aura of impermeable american unseriousness that makes so suggesting any actual actions in these encampments labels you a wrecker and got so many people thrown out for daring to suggest we not let zionists roam the encampment
i listened to Democracy Now’s coverage of the protest, and they also played recordings of the 1968 anti-Vietnam war protests and the contrast was shocking. I don’t know what it is but something in the culture shifted in the last 50 years like there’s this dominant anxious affect where we have thousands of kids on the internet getting “radicalized” in their politics but the idea of actually doing something, anything is just too nasty and crass and weird
1968 is honestly what I was expecting this to be like. That’s why I feel so deflated.
1968 was a police riot, so I’m not disappointed it didn’t happen this time around
but it’s movement building! 3 or 4 of those people are definitely signing up to go through the PSL’s rigorous political education program so they can be a perfectly honed tool of
doing more recruitmentthe revolutionary vanguard! not at all like the trots handing out newpapers.Honestly I don’t even mind the PSL keeping peaceful protests in most instances. It definitely depends on what’s going on, I’ve fully supported some green actions that PSL have put on. But stopping people from getting up against a fence is absurd
Comparing PSL to trots lol
Deeply unserious.
i know, they’re totally different! one is an ineffectual taillist org that captures and redirects class rage and anger at injustice towards book clubs and the other is wait hold on lemme try again
To note, they do happen to be a splinter from a splinter of a Trotskyist party. It’s not determinative, but it is a funny coincidence.
Comically unserious, if your critique of a socialist organization is that they’re focused on giving people a strong political education and growth of the movement, your critique might not be meaningful
As someone who was there, the “anarchists” seemed more eager just to divert half the march into a wall of cops. Tell me you like kettling without telling me you like kettling.
It may be the case that the police had the complete ability to secure the building against anything short of the whole city stampeding.
But still, miss me with that “good-protester-bad-protester” :LIB: shit. Too amped up on respectability and the illusion of “free speech changing the course of history” to allow for their conflict to actually take form, to the point where they will turn their opposition inward on their own movement.
It’s like we learned nothing from the past few years of history. Does the phrase “diversity of tactics” mean nothing to you?
“Oh but there were children there” yeah I’m really fucking glad that there is a universal standard, where cops and the IDF never conduct violence within a 200-meter proximity of a minor.
I will not condemn Hamas.
I will also not condemn the demonstrators trying to fight cops.I like a good black bloc smashing through police lines as much as anyone but I think in this case it was correct to oppose it, even if I’d not have prevented them from breaking away.
In fact my general line for escalations in mass protest is “I’d rather you didn’t, but if it all goes south I’ll back you to the hilt.”
The only thing I’ve seen out of this protest has been a deeply unserious person flying an anarcho-brat flag and organizers/members of related orgs (PSL, FRSO) celebrating their wide turnout despite little to none material gains. It really feels like protests are the husk of what was once popular mobilization that represented a genuine threat to the ruling classes ability to ignore the popular masses. It’s not nothing, but this is barely the baby steps of a real movement and we should all be deeply ashamed we aren’t doing more 11 months into a genocide, not actively helping police ID those wanting to escalate!
I’ve met wreckers that look to escalate in inappropriate scenarios, it’s never good to get arrested but I’ve been following this whole discourse on twitter and this line of “wreckers looking to get symbolically arrested” is completely detached from what actually happened and what people are actually advocating for (ANY kind of genuine disruptment or even threat of disruptment) and feels, ironically, more wrecker than what’s being accused
This was actually really disappointing. Sucks to see that people in neon vests will step in and shut anything down and work with cops if they feel uncomfortable. Sucks that during a protest to stop genocide, getting too close to a fence is too much. Really disappointed in US liberals pretending to be anything more than that.
Reason I removed this from cth yesterday was specifically because of that last line. Anytime protest organizers start calling for pigs to intervene they have forfeited any legitimacy regardless of whether it was supposed to be peaceful.
If there are “wreckers trying to escalate” then you handle them internally you don’t call for police intervention. If they really are wreckers then the cops will just let them instigate until the feel they can justify going after the whole protest group, if they are just some overzealous young people caught up in the heat of the moment all you are doing is inviting the cops to escalate instead and throwing possible comrades under the bus.
That is fundamentally worse than just being peace police at a lib march.
Can’t believe don’t call on cops to fuck with your protest is being met with such lib responses here ffs.
It shouldnt be this hard, but americans are gonna be americansCan’t believe don’t call on cops to fuck with your protest is being met with such lib responses here ffs.
Fortunately this did not happen
Te op stats that it did and they didn’t even provide any counters to this. “Some users” can’t really anecdotally refute what the OP states and that is what I took issue with.
Also getting too close to a fence is flimsy justification for peace policing. Not like people were advocating violence or even property destruction from the evidence in this post.
Personally, I’m listening to my comrades on the ground, which is why I say it didn’t happen.
https://xcancel.com/killerguerilla/status/1826331272106402261
Thanks for sharing this.
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Then why not lead with that?
I mean I didn’t make the post. I dug up this thread for you because you said you wanted additional info
Also getting too close to a fence is flimsy justification for peace policing. Not like people were advocating violence or even property destruction from the evidence in this post.
I mean…
This is an activist who was on the ground.
This is a cropped screenshot with incomplete information that doesn’t support or refute anything said here.
Quit being lazy with screenshot cropping and link actual sources ffs
What “incomplete information”? What sources do you want? Twitter links? lol
Get over yourself. Even if I gave you what you wanted, you would come up with another excuse and another and another. All to prove you were right in deleting my post.
What the hell? You provide no material argument and instead give empty snarky responses and expect them just to understand your point at all? Lazy and rude, get over yourself and stop being so easily placated by people telling you a cop and politician sanctioned parade might not have been the most effective and well planned protest, this is barely a step above the ppl running to tail ilhan omar rn god amerikkka is cooked
No I earnestly want more concrete details because as of now all we have are third hand anecdotes and these cropped screenshots.
Well as it turns out from users who were actually there and are active in these orgs, they didn’t call the police on them, so…
So did they or did they not call for police to intervene as your own post states?
The cops were there already, nobody had to literally call them. Your post outright states that they were present and asked to intervene?
So this unsourced claim here already has falsehoods. Just saying your own post contains no sources but if taken at face value people did in fact call for police intervention.
If that isn’t the case it is your responsibility to present accurate information or clarify that when you posted this it contained at least some misinformation.
Also nowhere was I being sectarian. I actually like a lot of PSL folks.
I didn’t post that the police intervened. The screenshot did and I only used it because that was the main post that was gaining traction on social media (it was from Unicorn Riot). Of course, in the time since, new information has come to light that changes how the events happened (this info may have come up sooner if you didn’t delete my initial post).
Also nowhere was I being sectarian. I actually like a lot of PSL folks.
Whatever makes you sleep well, I guess.
So what is this new information that changes the nature of this post? Feel like that should be included for whatever point you are trying to make.
Reminder that nonviolent action was literally a CIA funded Psyop so successful it is now permanently baked into the way protests work worldwide.
wow, i’m so glad our protests can be Peaceful and follow the pre-approved routes, thank you to our beautiful self-appointed law enforcement officers for making sure we can participate in the democratic process safely and with minimal fuss!
like fuck, maybe fighting cops isn’t always about Doing The Revolution. maybe i just want to fight a cop. maybe i don’t like how he’s looking at me. what fucking business is it of yours? whose side are you fucking on?
Fine for you, I guess. Not fine for the other people present who don’t want things to escalate that way.
A person being violent is not forcing everyone in the vicinity to be violent.
A “protest marshal” corraling someone for the police is an attempt to force them to be nonviolent.
Do you understand the difference here in terms of autonomy and coercion?
You probably have “but the media will smear everyone as being violent” up your sleeve. Sure, that can and will happen. A corollary of this is that they don’t even need any real material; cops could send anyone in to throw hands or rocks and invoke the same media treatment on a 100% peaceful protest.
I wish you well. I’m a fucking coward. Given how Illinois cops will execute a woman for leaving on a kettle, not sure how much I got it in me to throw hands.
