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Getting the old gang back together! Too bad Russia is on the other side this time.
They’ve always been “that acquaintance”.
You only know each other for mutual benefit or a mutual friend, but when that’s gone, there becomes literally no reason to hang out any more.
Considering Russia’s past performance in naval warfare in the Pacific, we’re probably better off without them.
Getting the old gang back together!
Germany, Japan, and Italy?
I don’t mean to pick on you specifically with this comment, but good lord people, there’s more to history than WW2. Anytime anyone tries to make a historical reference to current events it’s awkwardly shoehorned into a WW2 framework. It drives me crazy. Anyway, sorry for the rant there. No, it’s an older gang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_China
Ah, you’re talking about colonialism. You’re going to have a hard time finding anti-colonialists on Lemmy, unfortunately.
Nah, it was just a throwaway joke, the west obviously doesn’t intend to colonize China this time. What they did in the 19th century was egregious, though, and should be much more common knowledge than it is.
the west obviously doesn’t intend to colonize China this time
The Chinese state is a much harder nut to crack under the CCP than it was a century and a half ago under the Qing Dynasty. But there are plenty of John Bolton-esque figures in the American government who seem willing to give it the old college try.
What they did in the 19th century was egregious, though, and should be much more common knowledge than it is.
It’s very difficult to talk about the English Empire as the world’s premier opium cartel without taking a bit of the blush off the rose of liberal democracy and free market capitalism. These historical blemishes get dusted over for a reason.
It’s very difficult to talk about the English Empire as the world’s premier opium cartel without taking a bit of the blush off the rose of liberal democracy and free market capitalism. These historical blemishes get dusted over for a reason.
I agree, but that reflex is unfortunate because the ability to openly discuss and confront those things is what sets democracies apart from totalitarian states. You could never see that kind of frank introspection in China regarding June 4th '89, for example.
You could never see that kind of frank introspection in China regarding June 4th '89, for example.
You could and did. That moment radically transformed how the Deng Administration treated independent political movements, college student activism, and old guard Maoist organizations.
The argument that Chinese politicians and scholars simply don’t acknowledge the events as happening is Western propaganda.
The fact that Russia was ever on the winning side given their history was a fluke.
Eh, they were also instrumental in defeating Napoleon, which counts for a lot.
Russia was always on another side. The Ribbentrop Pact was a weak, untrusting handshake between two barbaric regimes with mutual hatred and a shared realization it would be easier to go rape and pillage more peaceful people instead of each other.
Please see my reply to UnderpantsWeevil
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you mean the nazi gang?
2024 - 22 = 2002.
So probably not nazis. No.
Yeah… as a german taxpayer this is exactly what we need now. Poke China for no real reason.
You’re either with Taiwan or you’re with the Terrorists.
The hexbear tankies will get upset at this comment 😂
That’s okay, their opinions don’t matter.
I agree. I would love to entirely block them, but as long as Lemmy is developed and controlled by tankies, this won’t happen. I’m convinced that they made the user-facing instance block feature so shitty on purpose, so people can’t entirely block their tankie instances on a user level. Because they know that they are annoying as fuck, and half the Fediverse would block them immediately.
We’ve got bigger fish to fry at home. My government is actively fueling a genocide in Gaza and doing business with a shitton of other genocidal countries, so virtue signalling with our military by crossing some random strait in east Asia doesn’t make me feel any better about anything.
Okay, but can you at least admit that China is doing a genocide against Muslims and that we need to wage a holy war to end their tyrannical communist rein and restore a godly liberal democracy to their shores?
I agree that they are doing a genocide against the Uyghurs and that should be stopped. I don’t agree with any “holy wars” or whatever you’re on there, and I’m not a fan of “liberal democracy” either, since I myself am a communist. I don’t see how the german navy crossing through the taiwan strait will change any of that, or if it has absolutely any value, since Germany very well funds an active genocide right now and they don’t seem to have a problem with that or the tyrannical Israeli government either. This is just more pathetic virtue signalling.
I don’t see how the german navy crossing through the taiwan strait will change any of that
They’ll be greeted as liberators, obviously.
Heh.
Terrorists?!! You mean people you disagree with?
A threat to the existence of our people and a future for our children
Stupidity and blind hate? I agree!
Yep but if you think that word is too biased you can also call them communists, climate activists or snowflakes. Which one you pick depends solely on your own mood.
Yeah, me disagreeing with them locking people up over social media posts criticizing them.
The word “terrorist” has an incredible power to shut off people’s brains.
Not used in good faith here. Hateful nationalist garbage people with nothing better to do and no original thoughts. Yeah, a 1/4 of the world’s population are terrorists because some government claimed them. I can’t stand ignorant mouth breathers…
Would you rather encourage Chinese aggression and show them your country can be bullied around?
I’d rather my country not get involved in these superficial platitudes as long as they keep funding aggression in other parts of the globe. If they didn’t fund such aggressions, then I wouldn’t mind, but as of now, it only looks like pathetic virtue signalling to me.
“Funding aggression”. Lol. No wonder Germany got fucked in the ass by Russia and China so many times with such bootlickers among the voting population.
Bootlickers for what? I’m talking about Germany funding Israel to commit its genocides in the Middle East. You’re the one licking boots if you still have the zionist boot down your throat. Also, it’s quite telling that you see nazi germany getting “fucked in the ass” by Russia as something bad.
I’m more with you regarding Israel. However, the context here is China, not Israel.
Also, it’s quite telling that you see nazi germany getting “fucked in the ass” by Russia as something bad.
Wtf. You know it’s 2024, right? Nazi Germany is no more (unless AfD and consorts form the new government).
I was not talking about WW2-times.
Germany got fucked “in the ass” because of capitalist greed, not because of “people like me”. If it was up to me our industries would’ve never left the country in the first place, and most of the privatizations wouldn’t have gone through. Corporate greed would’ve been stopped, and foreign companies that don’t have the interest of the people would’ve been nationalized a long time ago. But that’s not the reality. Besides that, there’s plenty of nazi like rhetoric going around nowadays. Green politicians talking about “the poison of Islam” [1], which reminds me a lot of the antisemitic rhetoric from WW2 (see “Der Giftpilz” [2], talking about jewish people as “the poisonous mushroom”). Besides that, Germany didn’t denazify properly after WW2 anyway (“Persilscheine”, proper card carrying nazis in the first democratically elected government, and so on). The chancellor talking about “deportations in big style”. The CDU trying to ban refugees from going to any public events. And these are not even the nazis in the AfD. It might be 2024, but mentalities haven’t changed much, we’re just picking other out groups to stomp on, mostly because we’re not tackling the real issues at heart.
But again, to get back on China, Germany is very well conducting major business with a ton of authoritarian countries, stomping on workers’ rights all across the world just to enrich German companies, and thus I won’t take their virtue signalling for anything more than just virtue signalling. They can talk about “feminist foreign policy” as much as they like while increasing business with Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, and now even working with the Taliban. They can talk about green policy as much as they like, while funding lithium extraction mines against the will of the people in Serbia. They can talk as much as they like about democracy, while empowering cops to break limbs and beat the shit out of protesters at peaceful pro Palestinian demonstrations. They can talk about humanity as much as they like, while funding a genocide in Gaza and an illegal occupation in the West Bank. And I haven’t even voiced an opinion on these policies, I’m here just pointing out the hypocrisy. If they care so much about Taiwan, they should at least make it clear that it is due to geostrategic interests, not because they suddenly found their love for democracy and what not other nonsense.
[1] https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2024/gruenen-politikerin-warnt-vor-dem-gift-des-islams/
If it was up to me our industries would’ve never left the country in the first place, and most of the privatizations wouldn’t have gone through.
Alright, I see it the same way. Still, Germany managed to manoeuvre itself into dependencies of Russia and China, which has shot and still shoots them into the feet.
I’m totally in favour of trying to find diplomatic ways. But if the call to the talking table is not followed and rather met with aggression on multiple levels, it’s usually the wrong way to give into the demands of the ones who are not afraid to use violence. Therefore, what you see as “funding aggression” is to me a display of resistance. It shows that we will not be bullied into submission, nor will we allow those who use violence to dictate the terms of peace or cooperation.nazi like rhetoric going around nowadays. Green politicians talking about “the poison of Islam” [1], which reminds me a lot of the antisemitic rhetoric from WW2 (see “Der Giftpilz” [2]
I’ve read the article and watched the speech of Katharina Dröge afterwards to get a grasp of the context. As I’ve suspected, the article of the far-right magazine “Junge Freiheit” over-emphasized the “Gift des Islams” part of her speech. It’s just typical click- & ragebait again and a very misleading headline. At least the article itself somehow manages to not completeley misrepresent her actual speech.
If you’re interested, you can currently watch it here: https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/phoenix-parlament/katharina-droege-in-der-generaldebatte/phoenix/Y3JpZDovL3Bob2VuaXguZGUvNDU4NjA2Mg
You’ll probably notice as well that this was a rather minor phrasing. More importantly, it was embedded in and directed towards islamism, i.e., people radicalized to the point of becoming murderous, which has to be prevented of course. In the same speech she is emphasizing the importance of asylum for all of those who have suffered the worst and don’t become radicalized criminals.
Given this context and the fact that the German Greens are usually considered a rather left-leaning political party, I find the comparison to ‘Der Giftpilz’ not only vastly misplaced but also ridiculous.Besides that, Germany didn’t denazify properly after WW2 anyway (“Persilscheine”
Thanks for pointing out the “Persilscheine”. Despite the tremendous amount of “Nazis evil”-content in school, especially in history classes, this wasn’t a topic. An educational gap I’m eager to fill soon.
Regarding the statement of unproper denazification I can’t add anything to that besides personal impressions which have no value for general statements.The chancellor talking about “deportations in big style”. The CDU trying to ban refugees from going to any public events. And these are not even the nazis in the AfD. It might be 2024, but mentalities haven’t changed much, we’re just picking other out groups to stomp on, mostly because we’re not tackling the real issues at heart.
Yes, yes. This is indeed really bad. From my point of view the big old parties SPD, CDU/CSU are fearing for their public support. And instead of trying to address the real issues, they’re mimicking talking points of the AfD. The latter, unfortunately, becoming increasingly popular in many areas of Germany.
I wonder why that is.
No, I don’t.
(Okay, people being too incompetent to critically think about media adds to that.)However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say, that the mentalities haven’t changed much in all that time since WW2. Three generations were raised since then with the fourth one reaching maturity. And there is still a tremendous amount of people who are not sharing the same xenophobic idiotism propagated by AfD, CDU & Co. It’s not too late to prevent the mistakes of the past.
But again, to get back on China, Germany is very well conducting major business with a ton of authoritarian countries, stomping on workers’ rights all across the world just to enrich German companies, and thus I won’t take their virtue signalling for anything more than just virtue signalling.
I’m also not really happy about that. It’s one devil replaced by the other. However, there are different shades to that. At least the one devils have not launched a full-scale war. And now Germans have started to question their dependencies on foreign countries a bit more. But of course it can’t be a long-term solution to keep things as they are now.
I’ll take virtue signalling. “It’s something”. Besides, the current government is the most productive since the Merkel-era and has initiated and achieved many good things. Although I agree that regarding foreign affairs it could be better. Most progress was achieved in domestic affairs.
I’m here just pointing out the hypocrisy. If they care so much about Taiwan, they should at least make it clear that it is due to geostrategic interests, not because they suddenly found their love for democracy and what not other nonsense.
And people love hypocrits. If someone says the one thing, but does the opposite, does it make them wrong in what they said?
How about we criticise the bad and praise the good?
Could we stop making the international tensions? Provoking each other?
I claim a small corner of your livingroom as my property.
Please don’t make this tense or provoke me.
And I am going to load that corner full of guns pointed at your family.
But don’t be a dick and raise a fuss about it.
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excellent comment. cracked a smile.
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The alternative is to let certain countries de facto claim a region because others are too afraid to call them on their BS
You do realise that Taipei’s territorial claims are exactly the same as those of Beijing. I know the western media never bother to mention it because it doesn’t align with the approved narrative but Taiwan claims the very same nine dash line as China.
To this day, Taiwan remains firm in its claims to the South China Sea. They have been historically justified on the basis that, as there was no United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) in existence in 1947, it was legitimate for the ROC to claim the South China Sea territories and waters based on the historical connections of these with China. According to the Institute for National Defense and Security Research (INDSR), a Taiwanese think tank, there was no legal impediment to the claim in 1947 and, for a long period, there were no challenges to the ROC’s claims from other countries.[4] They were largely ignored – except by the People’s Republic of China (PRC), which concurred with them.
I know the western media never bother to mention it because it doesn’t align with the approved narrative
How to say “I’m not worth listening to” without saying it.
NATO states only seem to hear the things that please them.
No no no. It’s not “the approved narrative”.
You need to make it sound more sinister.
There’s a bit more to it than that.
NATO is a strategic alliance lead by the US. NATO doesn’t have any feelings and isn’t pleased or displeased about anything. Instead it generally does whatever is the US believes is most strategically advantageous.
Those strategist are typically smart people who listen to all kinds of things. They’re definitely careful about what they say though and won’t go around promoting information they don’t want suppressed.
NATO doesn’t have any feelings and isn’t pleased or displeased about anything.
Organizations are composed of people, my friend. And people have feelings.
Those strategist are typically smart people who listen to all kinds of things.
I’ve heard the same said of Joe Rogan.
Yes and emergent behavior goes both ways. Organizations have many properties that the individuals they’re made up of don’t have and they lack many properties that individuals have. Organizations don’t have feelings. Even in the rare cases when the feelings of the people in those organizations are homogeneous, the organizations almost never manifest those feelings without significant alterations.
Are you seriously comparing Joe Rogan with NATO strategists?
you do realize that’s only because the CPR would never accept a end to the civil war with the independence of Taiwan?
The only reason Taiwan hasn’t abandoned their claims yet is because that would mean they say they’re independent, and that would lead to a certain invasion attempt by the CPR
Tank(ie) you for sharing your opinion!
Dude, I love China and its people and have been there several times. I obviously don’t approve of everything but some of the funniest, most kindhearted people on Earth are in China. I’m not sure there’s a place on Earth I’d rather have a meal with some regular citizens.
But just follow The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. Taipei can be wrong too. But those laws took like centuries of stupid wars and, ultimately, diplomacy, to establish. Even if you want to change them, it’ll require diplomacy and cooperation, not hosing down some Filipino fishermen.
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Has China stopped making ownership claims to waters and lands beyond their borders?
Does China operate international police stations to police their citizens across the globe?
Maybe China should act right and follow the same treaties as the rest of the planet.
Lol and the US does nothing of these? Puerto Rico, Hawaii and so on was just always American?
Hi, it’s now 2024. To the best of my knowledge the independence movements of Puerto Rico and Hawaii are currently minimal (not non-existent, but even Texas has some weirdo secessionists). While the circumstances of those territories becoming a part of the US may be dicey, “our ancestors made a mistake” isn’t really a good reason to cut those places away entirely if modern-day people generally wish to keep the current arrangement.
Taiwan, on the other hand, generally wishes to remain independent from China. False equivalence.
yes, as the last vote clearly states that the whole island wants to be independent.
Screenshot taken at 18:07, which puts you at GMT+2. Curious what makes you such an expert in American and Asian secessionist politics from Eastern Europe 🤔
Nice refute to my relevant stats from the last election.
Lotsa misinformation coming from that general area.
Assuming the words themselves are accurate, there is still a difference between wanting to “engage more” with Beijing and wanting them to swallow your country whole. Not to mention all the other issues one may vote over
The most hated map on lemmy.world
You are the first person to ever bring it up.
As soon as Chinese “fishing vessels” aren’t armed and won’t turn their transponders off to sneak into territorial waters
I agree, that’s why China should drop all territorial claims for Taiwan
But doesn’t Taiwan consider itself the real and “royal” China? That’s what I’ve always been told. Or have they dropped that claim?
They don’t have any plans to enforce it violently though, while China is planning for a “cross-strait unification” (basically just invading Taiwan).
There would be outrage if China sailed warships through the Baltic and North seas, or the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean sea. Or if China had a strong military presence in Russia, Belarus, Cuba, and Venezuela etc.
Baltic and North seas, or the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean sea
None of these are contested territories. Chinese vessels go there all the time and nobody really cares.
Would it though? They did sail in baltics and the gulf
That you think there would be outrage highlights your lack of understanding.
International waters are just so. It’s only a problem when a country decides to try and restrict access to international waters, and one way to show that this decision is not accepted is to sail warships through it.
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Absolutely
I agree
I agree even more
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