I’ve been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn’t sure how to feel about it.
Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.
When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken “federation” system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it’s never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy’s official docs say you can’t even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won’t actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.
So you can only ever have the “average joe lemmy” and “average joe reddit” with everything approved by the authorities, and then “tor copies of lemmy” and “tor copies of reddit” where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.
People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn’t let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won’t let you talk at all.
Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different, it’s designed to match the past today and then match reddit’s present tomorrow, while being part of a system that’s about the same in past, present, and future.
Last year, this year, and next year, you’re posting somewhere it won’t be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There’s no difference here.
Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.
So it took you until now to say that was the point, and you still haven’t explained how it is a point here, let alone “the?”
I want a reddit-style feed with reddit and lemmy.world blocked and nobody who doesn’t block anyone blocked. I don’t care how lemmy.world operates unless they feel like joining in not banning any people who aren’t into people-banning.
They aren’t subject to the commercial pressures and interests of Reddit.
You could literally make your own instance and block all instances that block people. I’m sure there’s already one out there that fulfills this somewhere.
So?
Unless you mean “any commercial pressures and interests, like how reddit faces those” in which case, no, they are subject to those too
But it would be pointless, because they’d already block themselves before I block them, like all other instances.
What would make it useful would be if federation wasn’t broken, so I could block the censored ones without blocking all the others too.
So there’s no reason to believe it will go down the same trajectory.
What commercial pressures is Lemmy currently subject to?
…I’m lost on why this is pointless. Don’t you achieve the same result?
You can? You run your own instance and block who you like and federate with who you like. If it’s just you, you’d likely not be defederated by the instances who you federate with.
I explained how it would and it had nothing to do with that stuff, so that doesn’t make sense.
Moderation is done by humans, so they can always be bribed.
But the thread you’re commenting on was actually originally about how Lemmy’s federation is broken, and the brokenness is perpetuated by people who are into censorship (which it can be argued is a “commercial pressure”) and then the result, where instances/clusters can all be shut down by ICANN any time, definitely leaves the user base continuing to be subjected to commercial pressure
What? How is this confusing you?
For the millionth time, federation is broken according to the documentation. Tor doesn’t work, so you cannot just start your own instance. It has to be approved by the authorities. How many times do I have to repeat myself in this thread?
Reddit is subject to intense commercial interests and pressures which has led to its decline as a platform. The Fediverse simply is not. Your diagnosis of Reddits flaws is broken to begin with, ergo your conclusions don’t work.
Then if an instance is compromised by bribery, people can all defederate the instance and move their communities from it. That’s the point of federation.
Have you considered both the users and the admins of the instances don’t support a free-for-all system where people can hurl abuse, insults, slurs, and make threats?
A fantasy that exists only in your head, that has never happened.
Why does it matter if they block themselves vs. you blocking them?
That doesn’t mean its broken, it just means it doesn’t work like you want it to.
The “authorities” do not manually approve every single emerging lemmy instance. What are you on about?
Correct.
Incorrect.
Didn’t ask. Is this supposed to be relevant somehow? If so, how?
Copying and pasting yet again: “this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people.”
Source?
Me blocking them is a waste of time when they’ve already blocked themselves, and why did you yet another dumbass question you shouldn’t need me to answer after a quote where I asked you yet another question you ignored? Just a weak attempt at gaslighting, right?
No, I’m talking about the broken federation system, not my whole preference for P2P systems over “federation”
Why do you bring up yet another random thing? Again, is this supposed to be related somehow?
Are you asking what I’ve typed on a screen where you can already re-read it?
How?
Yes, because it means that bribery to censor or control content on an instance is not an effective way to manipulate the Fediverse.
It negates your point.
Yes, I’m happy to see bans happen to “certain people”. You are a desolate minority on here. Almost no-one agrees with you, and does not desire an instance or federated instances without moderation.
You made the claim. You back it up. Have you got any precedent of ICANN doing this at all?
So? You still get what you want.
It’s not broken. It works as intended.
You’re making claims that are not true. You said that "Tor doesn’t work, so you cannot just start your own instance. It has to be approved by the authorities. "
Yet again, federation broken. Re-read original post.
Incorrect.
Nope.
Didn’t ask, don’t care. Why did you type this?
What claim? (Too lazy to scroll up and check)
Why should I back it up?
Nope. Is there a reason I should?
This seems like it’s baiting me to give a reply that could get me banned here. Try saying it on nostr
Incorrect, unless it’s intended to keep ambulance rides expensive for poor people.
Incorrect.
Correct, with the caveat that anyone discussing this in good faith would find it very obvious I meant a proverbial “you,” not a glowie like you personally.