So to preface this is posted in literature.cafe’s meta community but this
question is primarily aimed at generally anyone in the lemmyverse who is NOT a
cisgender man no matter what instance they may be in. The purpose of this thread
is to present a stage for conversation for those willing to contribute, and
although cisgender men are not excluded I kindly ask you to be mindful of the
fact what this thread is meant for and try to avoid talking over others here. If
you are a cisgender man interested in learning and seeing how lemmy can improve
like I am: welcome. For those who are here to cause issues or talk over others
though, you will be promptly removed. I do not know the demographic data of
lemmy, but I would wager a large portion are male. And over the past few weeks I
have witnessed women on numerous occasion discuss their discomfort on here.
Reddit very much had a very “bro-y” feeling culture for many, that felt like a
barrier to entry to many women. With lemmy, there’s a potential to break this.
But the answer really is how? Lemmy has begun to develop into its own culture
already independent of Reddit quite rapidly, and it’s been awesome to see but I
am wondering if there’s a way we can push it a step further and implement ways
to make the platform more welcoming to women than Reddit previously did.
Thoughts?
Conversation ongoing over there, inviting anyone who wants to participate to please consider sharing their thoughts if they are willing to. If you wanna post in the original thread from your instance copy and paste the link into your instances search panel
As I said in the thread, if you aren’t comfortable posting feel free to DM me here or on matrix and I can post anonymously for you.
This is the flow-on effect of the association of STEM hobbies/toys/interests with males. The toy aisles in shops are better than they used to be, but toys marketed to boys are still heavily STEM labour-oriented stuff while the girls get a lot of Homemaker and Caregiver and aesthetically-driven stuff etc.
Even if you give your kids both, they still interact with other kids at school who primarily get the gender role toys, and make the gender/interest association. By the time they hit teenage years and are starting to engage with the internet, the learning and interest gap is there.
And when you do get girls who start exploring STEM stuff individually, they stumble into communities that are mostly male, everyone assumes everyone else is also male, and they very quickly feel like an outsider and a piece of meat. The constant mention of hentai as a “hobby” is one weird manifestation of this on Lemmy, and the amount of porn featuring heavily-edited thin young women. For anyone going to one of the main instances right now for the first time, there’s a good chance that’s a large portion of the feeds.
The endless transphobia is also a huge contributor right now, for cis or trans women. So many people commenting about how they define a woman to be from the male perspective. Written as though they’re talking about a hypothetical group of others, instead of asking the women who are definitely already here for their lived experiences.
tl;dr huge multifaceted cultural problem that is unlikely to be solved by lemmy alone. If you want to help, try not to assume male defaults, post content and mod communities that women have historically engaged with online, and tell your boys and girls that anyone can play with the Lego and trucks and fashion dolls and cooking sets. Actually, do one better and play with your kids with the toys you didn’t get as a child because of your genitals and explore something new together.
The constant mention of hentai as a “hobby” is one weird manifestation of this on Lemmy, and the amount of porn featuring heavily-edited thin young women. For anyone going to one of the main instances right now for the first time, there’s a good chance that’s a large portion of the feeds.
Calling sexual preferences a “hobby” is weird AF… but I wanted to point out that the “feeds”, as in the “All” of any instance that’s federating with Lemmynsfw or similar, is likely going to be full of porn… not because the instance itself is full of porn, but because it’s a huge fail on Lemmy’s part to make a feed which is a bundle of all subscribed communities by even a single user on the instance, so if anyone subscribes to porn, it goes straight to “All”.
This is true, and ultimately I think it captures the problems with all social interaction including this topic. How do we determine what is acceptable or even welcoming behaviour/content? Frequently by majority. And if the majority has started heavily skewed to one demographic, then anyone coming in afterwards starts as an outsider in some way. And if the tools are built by a skewed majority, the tools will fix what the skewed majority considers important.
I have no solutions for this, I’m just thinking out loud and you got me on this path. Sorry for the notification!
Yes, of course, but this is the beauty of federated systems running on open source platforms, isn’t it? No matter the bias, both the tooling can be changed, and instances with a different bias can be set up. There is always going to be a bias, but there is no lock-in to a single one.
In this particular case, there are some possible technical solutions:
The simplest one, would be to just allow instance admins pick which communities they wish to feature in their instance’s “All” feed. Not an “all as controlled by users”, but an “all as controlled by admins” (this in itself is a “curious” bias introduced by the upstream developers, given their political views… but let’s not delve into that)
A more advanced solution, but equally desirable, would be adding support for custom feeds (see: multireddits, Twitter timelines, Mastodon), with “All” being just one of them that happened to be controlled and promoted by the instance’s admin, configurable through the same interface as any other.
It may not be possible, or even desirable, to remove all bias, but it can be left to the user to pick which one they like more.
(And don’t worry, I’m also thinking out loud… since right now I’m unable to get hands-on to adding any of these options, and it’s eating me alive 😅)
Even if you give your kids both, they still interact with other kids at school who primarily get the gender role toys, and make the gender/interest association. By the time they hit teenage years and are starting to engage with the internet, the learning and interest gap is there.
I’m genuinely hoping that things will be better for my children, through some active management of the environment/exposure that my kids see, especially by fostering and highlighting examples they can learn from. I’m hoping that the early exposure will provide some level of inoculation against the worst of the worst cultural gender norms. There are a number of women engineers and programmers in our family, and my wife has a ton more athletic accolades/credentials than I do. So my daughter associates her soccer league with following in her mom’s footsteps, and knows that science and computers are associated with her aunts.
As the dad, I do almost all the cooking in my home, and any activity in the kitchen is associated more with me than with their mom. My daughter has a play kitchen but she also tends to come to me to be the person to show her how to play restaurant (not sure if I’m muddling the message by implicitly leaning into the male stereotype for professional cooking, rather than the female stereotype for at-home cooking).
Of course, there are plenty of examples of people doing things more traditionally associated with their own gender, but I’m hoping that the more chaotic distribution weakens the willingness to internalize stereotypes.
So I am somewhat optimistic, somewhat hopeful, that these Gen Alpha kids will actually have plenty more counterexamples diluting the force and effect of those societal gender norms, compared to what we experienced as Millennials.
It’s definitely slowly improving, but a walk through the toy section of my store has still saddened me on occasion. And I live somewhere that would be globally considered generally “socially progressive”.
but I’m hoping that the more chaotic distribution weakens the willingness to internalize stereotypes
It will, but it’s also going to be pretty obvious to them after a while that the girls at school always play dress-ups with dolls at lunchtime while the boys are playing with toy cars and trucks. Kids start really getting the hang of categories, associations and social cues with language development from around age 3 and up.
They especially will notice when one kid (or worse, adult) says “you can’t play with that/them, that’s for !” Or “I’m not going to do , that’s for \s!”. Then they have to try to figure out what makes their family so different and why they aren’t like others, which can lead to some interesting hypotheses as a young child.
I vividly remember some boys objecting to singing in class at school when I was very young (6?) because singing was for girls. The teacher asked them what they thought about the most famous male singer of the time, and they uncomfortably shuffled around and grumbled as a response. It was clearly conflicting information for them, and I think it might have been the first time I encountered someone openly challenging gender expectations.
I’ve been seeing it in fashion, too, with children’s clothes not being as clearly gendered. There’s the whole muted colors/beige trend that’s easy to make fun of, but looking closer also reveals quite a bit more undermining gender norms in clothes. My daughter wears a lot of dresses (obviously a girly clothing item) with things that are traditionally associated with boys: rocket ships, robots, dinosaurs, heavy construction equipment like dump trucks and excavators, etc. I happen to have a lot of men’s clothes that use floral prints or similar design elements, and my toddler son has some of those shirts, too.
I know I have a long road ahead of me on parenting through how to navigate societal gender norms (or even other norms that don’t always make sense), but I remain hopeful and optimistic that the environment will be relatively kind and will provide plenty of role models of all types to work with, and draw lessons/examples from.
I’m not going to win every fight, of course, but I’d like to think I’ll be able to choose my battles and at least provide some guidance in the right direction, and shield my kids from the worst of the worst examples.
This is the flow-on effect of the association of STEM hobbies/toys/interests with males. The toy aisles in shops are better than they used to be, but toys marketed to boys are still heavily STEM labour-oriented stuff while the girls get a lot of Homemaker and Caregiver and aesthetically-driven stuff etc.
Even if you give your kids both, they still interact with other kids at school who primarily get the gender role toys, and make the gender/interest association. By the time they hit teenage years and are starting to engage with the internet, the learning and interest gap is there.
And when you do get girls who start exploring STEM stuff individually, they stumble into communities that are mostly male, everyone assumes everyone else is also male, and they very quickly feel like an outsider and a piece of meat. The constant mention of hentai as a “hobby” is one weird manifestation of this on Lemmy, and the amount of porn featuring heavily-edited thin young women. For anyone going to one of the main instances right now for the first time, there’s a good chance that’s a large portion of the feeds.
The endless transphobia is also a huge contributor right now, for cis or trans women. So many people commenting about how they define a woman to be from the male perspective. Written as though they’re talking about a hypothetical group of others, instead of asking the women who are definitely already here for their lived experiences.
tl;dr huge multifaceted cultural problem that is unlikely to be solved by lemmy alone. If you want to help, try not to assume male defaults, post content and mod communities that women have historically engaged with online, and tell your boys and girls that anyone can play with the Lego and trucks and fashion dolls and cooking sets. Actually, do one better and play with your kids with the toys you didn’t get as a child because of your genitals and explore something new together.
Calling sexual preferences a “hobby” is weird AF… but I wanted to point out that the “feeds”, as in the “All” of any instance that’s federating with Lemmynsfw or similar, is likely going to be full of porn… not because the instance itself is full of porn, but because it’s a huge fail on Lemmy’s part to make a feed which is a bundle of all subscribed communities by even a single user on the instance, so if anyone subscribes to porn, it goes straight to “All”.
This single point, can have a technical solution.
This is true, and ultimately I think it captures the problems with all social interaction including this topic. How do we determine what is acceptable or even welcoming behaviour/content? Frequently by majority. And if the majority has started heavily skewed to one demographic, then anyone coming in afterwards starts as an outsider in some way. And if the tools are built by a skewed majority, the tools will fix what the skewed majority considers important.
I have no solutions for this, I’m just thinking out loud and you got me on this path. Sorry for the notification!
Yes, of course, but this is the beauty of federated systems running on open source platforms, isn’t it? No matter the bias, both the tooling can be changed, and instances with a different bias can be set up. There is always going to be a bias, but there is no lock-in to a single one.
In this particular case, there are some possible technical solutions:
It may not be possible, or even desirable, to remove all bias, but it can be left to the user to pick which one they like more.
(And don’t worry, I’m also thinking out loud… since right now I’m unable to get hands-on to adding any of these options, and it’s eating me alive 😅)
I’m genuinely hoping that things will be better for my children, through some active management of the environment/exposure that my kids see, especially by fostering and highlighting examples they can learn from. I’m hoping that the early exposure will provide some level of inoculation against the worst of the worst cultural gender norms. There are a number of women engineers and programmers in our family, and my wife has a ton more athletic accolades/credentials than I do. So my daughter associates her soccer league with following in her mom’s footsteps, and knows that science and computers are associated with her aunts.
As the dad, I do almost all the cooking in my home, and any activity in the kitchen is associated more with me than with their mom. My daughter has a play kitchen but she also tends to come to me to be the person to show her how to play restaurant (not sure if I’m muddling the message by implicitly leaning into the male stereotype for professional cooking, rather than the female stereotype for at-home cooking).
Of course, there are plenty of examples of people doing things more traditionally associated with their own gender, but I’m hoping that the more chaotic distribution weakens the willingness to internalize stereotypes.
So I am somewhat optimistic, somewhat hopeful, that these Gen Alpha kids will actually have plenty more counterexamples diluting the force and effect of those societal gender norms, compared to what we experienced as Millennials.
It’s definitely slowly improving, but a walk through the toy section of my store has still saddened me on occasion. And I live somewhere that would be globally considered generally “socially progressive”.
It will, but it’s also going to be pretty obvious to them after a while that the girls at school always play dress-ups with dolls at lunchtime while the boys are playing with toy cars and trucks. Kids start really getting the hang of categories, associations and social cues with language development from around age 3 and up.
They especially will notice when one kid (or worse, adult) says “you can’t play with that/them, that’s for !” Or “I’m not going to do , that’s for \s!”. Then they have to try to figure out what makes their family so different and why they aren’t like others, which can lead to some interesting hypotheses as a young child.
I vividly remember some boys objecting to singing in class at school when I was very young (6?) because singing was for girls. The teacher asked them what they thought about the most famous male singer of the time, and they uncomfortably shuffled around and grumbled as a response. It was clearly conflicting information for them, and I think it might have been the first time I encountered someone openly challenging gender expectations.
I’ve been seeing it in fashion, too, with children’s clothes not being as clearly gendered. There’s the whole muted colors/beige trend that’s easy to make fun of, but looking closer also reveals quite a bit more undermining gender norms in clothes. My daughter wears a lot of dresses (obviously a girly clothing item) with things that are traditionally associated with boys: rocket ships, robots, dinosaurs, heavy construction equipment like dump trucks and excavators, etc. I happen to have a lot of men’s clothes that use floral prints or similar design elements, and my toddler son has some of those shirts, too.
I know I have a long road ahead of me on parenting through how to navigate societal gender norms (or even other norms that don’t always make sense), but I remain hopeful and optimistic that the environment will be relatively kind and will provide plenty of role models of all types to work with, and draw lessons/examples from.
I’m not going to win every fight, of course, but I’d like to think I’ll be able to choose my battles and at least provide some guidance in the right direction, and shield my kids from the worst of the worst examples.