You’re pointing out the fundamental contradiction of capitalism - bosses make a profit by paying workers less than their value - that is the basis of Marxism. We are all extremely aware that your boss needs to underpay you to “make any money, or even break even”. It is literally the reason we oppose capitalism.
So you propose they pay you exactly the amount you make them, and the company goes broke in the process, so now you also make nothing since you don’t have a job?
No, we propose that there not be a group of people (capitalists) who own the business just so they can extract profit from the worker’s labor. The workers should collectively own the firm. We recognize that there are two primary classes in society: those who work for a wage that is less than the value they generate (the working class) and those who own a business and extract profit by underpaying their workers (the capitalist class). These classes are inherently in conflict, and the only resolution to that is socialism, which removes the capitalist class from the equation entirely.
So the people who put in the most risk and started the company get nothing more than someone who joined 20 years later? How do you expect companies to get created if the owner constantly loses more and more of their company the bigger it gets? Why risk any of this money in the company when it isn’t even his anymore?
Since they run the business I assume they will be making a lot more than the rest of the employees, right?
State and worker directed capital funds that vet and invest in new firms.
Do you really think that can work? I think you will have a very hard time getting people to agree to put their money into stuff like this.
We will structure access to capital such that we don’t depend on profit-sucking capitalists to grant it to us.
Ah, yeah, let’s just restructure the whole system into some untested idea, that’s going to go over great with everyone. How would you even start making this change?
Since they run the business I assume they will be making a lot more than the rest of the employees, right?
It’s important to note that in many cases, owners do not run the business - they hire someone else to do it for them. Now, if the founder (not an owner in this context) remains in a prominent and valuable leadership position, they will probably be one of the highest paid people in the firm. But we’re talking a difference of 3x-10x the lowest paid worker at the most, not the 400x you see in CEOs today. Ultimately pay decisions are made by the board, which is elected by workers (and potentially union leadership, community members, government regulators, etc, as befits the particular firm).
Do you really think that can work? I think you will have a very hard time getting people to agree to put their money into stuff like this.
I mean, co-ops and governments all over the world already do it, so yes, I don’t see why it would suddenly stop working.
Ah, yeah, let’s just restructure the whole system into some untested idea, that’s going to go over great with everyone. How would you even start making this change?
Again, you’re speaking to a bunch of revolutionary Marxists. We do, in fact, want to restructure the whole system. That’s what I’m telling you. We want to fundamentally change the way property ownership works. The only way it would happen is if there’s a mass popular movement to make it happen, so those of us in capitalist countries spend our time organizing around this, creating parties and other groups that can hopefully bring about this change. These ideas not untested, however - many countries implement some component of worker ownership and state planning into their economy at all kinds of different scales. Some countries operate under Marxist governments that work to implement these on a society-wide scale, often with a great deal of success. We can learn from that success and from the mistakes those governments made/make. Not untested at all.
The owner at the very least risked a lot of time and money to get the business going, and it would have been a while before they hired someone else to do the job. It’s not like they just sat back and did nothing.
The owner took on 100x+ the risk any employee is, should they not get rewarded for taking that risk?
I mean, co-ops and governments all over the world already do it, so yes, I don’t see why it would suddenly stop working.
On a very small scale they sometimes work, when they get larger scale they usually have a CEO and upper management like any other business. In the end it’s really not that different. Look at REI for example, it’s a co-op, has a CEO, and at least in my area has pretty average pay and benefits. They have laid off people recently due to profit concerns, and have ok ratings on job sites. What is the advantage to these exactly?
These ideas not untested, however - many countries implement some component of worker ownership and state planning into their economy at all kinds of different scales
Can you give me the best example of a current city, country, or whatever that is closest to what you think is best for the US to change to?
Care to elaborate about whatever point you are making?
Fundamentals of Marx: Surplus Labor and Value. (video is only 10 min long)
E: This one goes into more depth, is a bit more polished of a production, and is 17min: Marx’s Law of Value: Intro to Marxist Economics | Socialism 101
You’re pointing out the fundamental contradiction of capitalism - bosses make a profit by paying workers less than their value - that is the basis of Marxism. We are all extremely aware that your boss needs to underpay you to “make any money, or even break even”. It is literally the reason we oppose capitalism.
So you propose they pay you exactly the amount you make them, and the company goes broke in the process, so now you also make nothing since you don’t have a job?
No, we propose that there not be a group of people (capitalists) who own the business just so they can extract profit from the worker’s labor. The workers should collectively own the firm. We recognize that there are two primary classes in society: those who work for a wage that is less than the value they generate (the working class) and those who own a business and extract profit by underpaying their workers (the capitalist class). These classes are inherently in conflict, and the only resolution to that is socialism, which removes the capitalist class from the equation entirely.
So the people who put in the most risk and started the company get nothing more than someone who joined 20 years later? How do you expect companies to get created if the owner constantly loses more and more of their company the bigger it gets? Why risk any of this money in the company when it isn’t even his anymore?
What’s the risk they take? Will they be killed if their business fails to turn a profit?
Oh no, they’ll might have to work for a wage like the people they were exploiting.
It’s a huge financial risk to start a business, most require a lot of upfront costs.
They’ll get as much as they continue to put in.
State and worker directed capital funds that vet and invest in new firms.
We will structure access to capital such that we don’t depend on profit-sucking capitalists to grant it to us.
Since they run the business I assume they will be making a lot more than the rest of the employees, right?
Do you really think that can work? I think you will have a very hard time getting people to agree to put their money into stuff like this.
Ah, yeah, let’s just restructure the whole system into some untested idea, that’s going to go over great with everyone. How would you even start making this change?
It’s important to note that in many cases, owners do not run the business - they hire someone else to do it for them. Now, if the founder (not an owner in this context) remains in a prominent and valuable leadership position, they will probably be one of the highest paid people in the firm. But we’re talking a difference of 3x-10x the lowest paid worker at the most, not the 400x you see in CEOs today. Ultimately pay decisions are made by the board, which is elected by workers (and potentially union leadership, community members, government regulators, etc, as befits the particular firm).
I mean, co-ops and governments all over the world already do it, so yes, I don’t see why it would suddenly stop working.
Again, you’re speaking to a bunch of revolutionary Marxists. We do, in fact, want to restructure the whole system. That’s what I’m telling you. We want to fundamentally change the way property ownership works. The only way it would happen is if there’s a mass popular movement to make it happen, so those of us in capitalist countries spend our time organizing around this, creating parties and other groups that can hopefully bring about this change. These ideas not untested, however - many countries implement some component of worker ownership and state planning into their economy at all kinds of different scales. Some countries operate under Marxist governments that work to implement these on a society-wide scale, often with a great deal of success. We can learn from that success and from the mistakes those governments made/make. Not untested at all.
The owner at the very least risked a lot of time and money to get the business going, and it would have been a while before they hired someone else to do the job. It’s not like they just sat back and did nothing.
The owner took on 100x+ the risk any employee is, should they not get rewarded for taking that risk?
On a very small scale they sometimes work, when they get larger scale they usually have a CEO and upper management like any other business. In the end it’s really not that different. Look at REI for example, it’s a co-op, has a CEO, and at least in my area has pretty average pay and benefits. They have laid off people recently due to profit concerns, and have ok ratings on job sites. What is the advantage to these exactly?
Can you give me the best example of a current city, country, or whatever that is closest to what you think is best for the US to change to?