Look, we know System76 laptops are based as fuck. I mean, Coreboot, Open source firmware, PopOS, and a fucking open source mobo in the works, just so fucking based.
But man, these framework laptops look cool too. Completely modular and easy to work on. Looks like the company has proved it isn’t going to go under anytime soon.
I’m debating what to get once I feel like upgrading from the trusty ol ThinkPad. What would you buy?
I have a framework 12th gen. It’s great. Fantastic build quality and when I want to upgrade, I don’t need a whole new laptop, just the necessary internal components. I can even switch to AMD!
Coreboot is cool, and I can’t wait to see the new system76 laptop that is being built in-house, but until that comes out, I don’t think I would ever consider the current lineup of system76 computers.
My main motivations are repairability, upgradability, and specificity of components, and system76 just doesn’t offer that. They don’t tell you what ram or SSD models go into your laptop, they don’t sell replacement parts, and there is no upgrade path.
https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/addw3/README.html
I’m pretty sure if you wanted to know more they’d tell you. System76 supports the right to repair, although their Laptops are probably not as easy to repair as a Framework.
I want to know on the purchase page what exactly is going into my laptop, I want to easily be able to purchase replacement parts from a catalog of in-stock components, and I want documentation for repairs and replacements.
Virgo will get motherboard upgrades.
I believe that they want to, but that laptop isn’t available yet, and it would be the first example of something like that from them, so I’ll wait until they produce a second generation of it to recommend to people.
I bought a Framework DIY. I live in regional Australia and being able to order parts to install myself and extend the longevity of my system was decisive. The Framework was a compromise on specs and wasn’t my first choice but nothing compares for sustainability and serviceability. I sourced ram and nvme locally and installed Arch.
System76 are a bit of a fantasy for me. I looked at them for years but I don’t want to pay a premium then deal with international RMA on a rebadged Clevo. I always bought whatever looked good in locally available Windows laptops instead before Framework.
Now I am in the ecosystem I very selfishly want Framework to succeed and guarantee my access to upgrades and parts. I respect System76’s mission and understand why people would wish to support them, particularly when their own laptop designs start shipping. System76’s focus on North America and dependence on white box laptops hasn’t delivered as well in my opinion, at least for my needs.
System76 have tried hard to improve openness and repairability but their laptops are still disposable at end of life while Framework have made a huge leap with upgradability that has the potential to reduce ewaste and I want to see how far that model can be pushed.
This!
I will never choose system76, they are strictly murica-centric (until the name lol) and don’t respect their potential customers from the rest of the world. Almost all of their laptops are simply clevo with another logo, but even then they don’t deign to offer something as extremely basic as keyboards in other languages, even if they are available from their vendor.
Also, in the stores that preset linux there is usually a bad quality-price ratio, but system76 is particularly expert in this. Special mention to the mediocre mechanical keyboard (only for murica, obviously) they designed, 200-300$.
The only good thing I can currently say about them is that they have some open firmware (coreboot, basically), but it’s not even that remarkable. Not only are there several companies in the competition that also do it, but it’s even the case of tiny ones with a couple of employees like novacustom.
I didn’t even realise what the ‘76’ in the name was meant to be until that comment, thats really rather cheesy…
I still don’t understand. what does it mean?
From wikipedia:
The number 76 in the company name is a reference to 1776, the year the American Revolution took place. Richell explained that the company hoped to spark an “open source revolution”, giving consumers a choice to not use proprietary software.
That doesn’t sound bad to me at all.
I find it very weird and it feels very nationalist/right-wing. In other countries the USA does not bring the concept of “freedom” to mind and, whilst it may be fine to Americans, doesn’t really make me want to get involved with them as a potential international customer.
Right wingers would have stuck with the monarchy.
Not that I think necessarily the left/right wing divide as we currently know it can be applied to history like that but I’m not so sure we can categorise the hyper-religious separatists as not being right wing at all. Either way, history isn’t the point here, the association many have of the kinds of people that tout “1776” everywhere tends to be the wife-beater wearing, massive pickup toting, 2fa enthusiasts obsessed with tramping people’s rights in the name of “muh freedums”.
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They registered the domain in 2003 and started selling in 2005. I don’t think it is fair to apply current right wing rhetoric to a name selected 20 years ago when it was more neutral (as were flags).
If they start marketing Proud Boy Linux I might reconsider that stance.
I won’t buy from them because their main software guy said some stupid stuff a while ago when he was mad at gnome and it came across as both inaccurate and needlessly antagonistic.
1776 apparently (year of the american revolution)
While I don’t like their current hardware options, they way they sell stuff, or Pop!_OS, their Virgo laptop could be promising and their new COSMIC desktop environment looks great so far. I hope they start to do other things right, but they have potential to nail both of those and they do contribute back to upstream projects, so I’m still glad they exist.
What don’t you like about popos?
I quite like it. Having used gnome, kde and even things like awesomwm or other des or window managers, pops de is quite nice
I don’t like desktop environments and operating systems tied together so tightly. Their new desktop seems like it will be self contained and fairly OS agnostic. Debian is a great OS. If they wanted to release a distribution with improvements over debian, that’s fine. Then if they wanted to make pop-desktop easy to simply install and have improvements over vanilla gnome, also fine. Then I could judge the benefits of both over the vanilla variants of each. I have similar problems with Ubuntu.
That’s fair. It seems like pop_os is trying to be a DE, the rest of the parts (kernel, drivers, packaging system of choice etc) are just a means to that end.
I wouldn’t consider pop for its kernel selection and immediately want to install AwesomeWM or something. For that I would just go straight Debian.
One thing to keep in mind is that Framework makes it easier by directly selling in Europe. With S76 there’re import fees etc that make it less straightforward. Especially in case of an RMA.
However with Framework you still need to be careful in Europe. It’s an US based company and if you have a defect or problem that Framework for some reason doesn’t resolve, good luck trying to enforce your EU customer protection or suing them in the US.
Framework is also very strict regarding unsupported countries. If you move within the EU to a country that isn’t supported by Framework, you’ll have big problems with support in case you need help or parts or whatever.
About support: I have a Framework laptop. With my initial shipment I received a defective Ethernet expansion port. The failure was difficult to identify, but support was incredibly responsive and helpful. Once it was confirmed the issue was due to a defective Ethernet card (which took some investigative effort), a replacement was shipped immediately.
All this to say that, if you live in a supported country in the EU, I see no reason that people may find their support lacking.
I’m not saying that support is lacking, all I’m saying is that you have to have complete trust in a company on the other side of the globe, because all the warranties and promises they give you are completely based on their good will. If they decide to stop supporting you for whatever reason, you pretty much have no leverage.
I live in Germany near the Netherlands border. Moving between countries is very common here because of different living costs and job opportunities and losing support because you move a few km west or east is not acceptable in my opinion.
I think using a framework is a unique experience. I don’t worry about breaking it nearly as much as I did with my old thinkpads. Like my hardware key shorted itself and took my usb port with it. But, instead of it costing me a new laptop, it was 1 week, ~$10, and I was back in business.
Also, Linux support has been great so far. The only thing I had to do was install the brightness stuff they document.
I also heard they’re working on coreboot, so that may be a thing. Also the fact that the motherboard is released to all repair shops is quite nice (at least there is some potential for some type of community audit).
Also, the laptop is super slick. The only complaint I have is maybe the battery life, but I’m not on the newest generation, and I don’t know what has changed. Highly recommend.
You can get a higher capacity battery for them now that’s a drop in replacement.
I saw that. I get around 5-6 hrs right now (with napkin math - 61W/55W = 1.1 * 6 = 6.6hrs?) . To be honest I am not sure if the difference is worth it. It is incomparable to the massive capacity of something like an M1.
They already have the Framework Chromebook, which should ship with Coreboot.
As someone who has been plagued by broken, hard to repair laptops before, I went for the Framework Laptop. Of course, your needs and wants might be different.
System 76 laptops are probably a bit better for Linux considering they were built specifically for it. They also have more variety in what kind of laptop you can get, whereas the Framework only comes in a 13 inch “ultrabook” form factor and a future 16 inch gaming laptop. And battery life I believe is a bit better than the Framework.
However, Framework still works really well with Linux (I use Linux Mint on mine, and it works great.) And the flexibility in being able to repair, upgrade and customize your laptop is really nice. Plus, the battery thing is slowly but surely getting fixed, and while it’s still not entirely great, it has gotten me through the day as a computer science student.
Framework selects components that work well with Linux. They’re acutely aware how many Linux users they’ve got from the activity in their forum. We’re very loud.
System 76 laptops are probably a bit better for Linux considering they were built specifically for it. TL;DR: Research the model of computer you’re looking to buy with the distro you want before making the purchase no matter who you’re buying from.
I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this. In 2018 I bought an Oryx Pro specifically because of this and because at the time JB was advertising them as “machines born to run Linux”. However, this was not the case. The machine would constantly fail to resume from sleep and when it did, the wired network adapter would sometimes stop working until you rebooted the machine. This was on Pop!OS. The wired network adapter issue did not occur on Debian Testing at the time, but at this point I was just doing all the same workarounds on a System76 machine that I would have to do on any other machine, which completely defeated the point of buying a machine “born to run Linux”. I ended up returning the machine despite this meaning that I would lose $1000 AUD in shipping (roughly $500 AUD each way). System76 did refund the cost of the machine as promised though and I appreciated the honesty and professionalism from their support. I believe the network issue was due to a regression in the kernel which had not yet trickled all the way down. To be fair, maybe System76 have ironed these issues out on their new machines.
Don’t buy a machine from a manufacturer because they specifically sell Linux laptops hoping that it means you won’t run in to any issues. Do some research on the model you’re looking to buy for any issues with the distro you want to run and make your decision from there. The Ubuntu computer certifications are really useful here. I believe Ubuntu tested the ThinkPad P52 I bought afterwards and said everything but the fingerprint sensor worked, but to NEVER turn on one of the BIOS options because I would brick the machine, so I knew this before buying the ThinkPad and could make an informed decision.
The one advantage you might get with a Linux manufacturer is that they might be able to help if there is an issue, where-as you might have to hide the fact you run Linux from other manufacturers.
I didn’t know they were planning a gaming laptop. That would be nice because I do some gaming but bot enough to want to buy a whole new rig every couple of years. Having a modular means to upgrade it would hopefully make it more affordable.
I got a System76 laptop in 2018, and it was a huge disappointment. Had to return it after a couple days because it stopped working, and they wanted my credit card info again before they’d ship me a replacement. The screen is awful and has a purple tint to it, and not all the features worked on Linux for the first year I had it.
If I wanted that level of frustration, a Windows laptop with similar specs would have been half the price.
I don’t think you can go wrong with either. But I love that I can swap my ports around on my framework laptop. Especially after my display port got broken last year (cable got snagged). Instead of it being damaged until I replaced the laptop, I ordered a new module for $20.
Eta: I’d love to see a partnership between them in the future.
Framework definitely. They actually build laptops, S76 are just rebeands afaik
Not just rebrands, they do put coreboot and as much OSS firmware on them as they can. So do contribute quite a lot to software around this, not to mention they maintain PopOS.
But also they have released the motherboard design for their Virgo laptop recently: https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1678891840093978625
I feel like these both lack really good high res displays. Why? It’s be awesome if it had something comparable to a MacBook Pro resolution.
not that it helps, but i think i heard framework is keen for 3rd party components? so there’s nothing stopping someone selling a 3rd party high res display for a framework laptop
hell i’ve seen people tear up old laptops and repurpose the screen: i wonder if you could part out an old macbook and replace a framework screen! :p
I’m holding out for some company to do an OLED one, or at least for an OLED mod to be available
The Framework is 2256x1504 in a 3:2 13.5" display and Macbook Pro 13" is 2560 x 1600 16:10. The Mac wins as they should with Apple’s massive vertical integration and profit margins but I would argue those numbers are comparable when a lot of laptops are still shipping with 1920x1080 16:9 displays.
The Framework 16" is going to be a 165Hz 2560x1600 16:10 which is well behind the Macbook Pro 16" but they are addressing very different markets. Many Linux and possibly still some Windows users are skeptical about the battery use, performance and os/app scaling of very high res displays while Apple addressed those issues a long time ago. I considered scaling a negative over using native resolution when looking at the Framework 13. It turned out not to be a problem.
Framework is a sustainable/repairable device for Windows/Linux/BSD/ChromeOS and they only really need to compete with what is available to those users. Their Chromebook is way ahead of the Chromebook market. They can’t compete against Apple because Apple doesn’t licence their OS or processors to other manufacturers so it is a pointless comparison.
Thanks for the info. I wasn’t quite aware of the 13” and it’s resolution. That is quite comparable I agree.
TBH, that’s not a factor for me. I use an HMD for everything these days so, it’s likely favorable to have a lower res to save power.
My next laptop will be a Framework. I like the idea of not being frustrated at the ports because I can just swap the ones I need in, and I like repairability, upgrades that reduce e-waste, and not having to buy things like the SSD with the computer if I can find better gear/prices elsewhere. I respect what System 76 do but Framework wins for my use case.
God damn man I wish Framework did the same coreboot open-source firmware…
They do have open-source firmware though. Not sure if all of it is but at the very least released:
- Embedded Controller (EC) firmware for the Framework Laptop
- QMK firmware for their 16" laptops keyboard and input devices
- Expansion cards reference documentation
And it looks like they are looking at coreboot, they have made attempts to port it (unsuccessfully) and given unlocked laptops to people in the coreboot community - though it seems like this is not a trivial task to do: https://community.frame.work/t/responded-coreboot-on-the-framework-laptop/791
This awesome
This is awesome
I’m not trying to start shit, but someone’s gotta ask:
With all the bad experiences itt from owners of both companies products, why not just get a thinkpad or mbp? You can still get socketed everything in the t and p series and eventually there’ll be Linux on the m1&2.
I could see buying framework or s76 if you were getting a good open laptop but at the place both companies products seem to be why not buy a known good computer and donate some money to whatever group is doing the work you wanna see done?
I’ve worked with both s76 and framework’s support and they’ve been great. Community support for framework is also especially good (for Linux)
MBP are all-soldered these days. Repairability is 0. ThinkPads still have replaceable RAM and SSDs but not motherboards, batteries are expensive if you can even find a genuine one, same with their keyboards. With a Framework, you can get all the parts from the source. They’re cheap and trivial to replace. In my book MBPs are simply not an option, ThinkPads are good if you get them off-lease for cheap. Otherwise - Framework.
I just picked two good computers, one that’s pretty modular. How are thinkpad motherboards not replaceable anymore? I was under the impression they have an fru number and everything still…
I haven’t seen any framework modules up on eBay, but maybe I didn’t use the right p/n search.
ThinkPad motherboards are replaceable per se. However it’s more work and you have to actually find a board. When I said they’re not replaceable I meant easily replaceable, I should have qualified it. Framework’s boards are sold directly by Framework. You know what you’re getting. There’s availability. There’s warranty. The replacement is trivial. Thanks to the internally standardised form factor you don’t even need the exact board gen to get going. Say if yours dies in 4 years and they no longer make it, a later gen board that fits the chassis will be available as a drop-in replacement.
I had a USB port fail on my 11th gen Intel Framework. They sent me a replacement motherboard along with a link to the instructions for replacing it. It took me under 10 minutes to swap it. It was amazing. Just opening up a ThinkPad these days without breaking a plastic clip could take as much.
What are you gonna do when the framework company goes under or runs out of parts?
Most likely the same as what I would do when Lenovo stops making spare boards for the model I have and I can no longer find any on eBay - bin it.
Except in the case of Framework going under, it’s much easier for another manufacturer to release a compatible motherboard since the form factor is published and fairly simple. Similar to why it’s easy to replace my desktop’s motherboard even when the original one is no longer made. If anything, the current OEM making the motherboards could keep making replacements on the same tooling after Framework is gone, so long as there are people buying them.
I wonder if theres a jlcpcb/pcbway/whatever equivalent for board assembly. Like if you have the gerbers getting boards is easy and cheap but the gcode for pick and place and reflow machines is specific and has spin up costs.
What I’m getting at is: does open sourcing the layouts and boms help?
ThinkPads also have that weird wifi whitelist and proprietary firmware
Totally forgot about that. I typically don’t change the WiFi module, but yes.
I didnt hear a lot about negative experiences with both of those companies, do you have any examples?
I think one thing that is often overlooked is supporting a good idea. I heard/read often enough that people like the ability to repair or tweak their laptops so maybe this is another reason to buy one. In the hope, that the company delivers more and better in the future.
Yeah I get that. What I’m asking is if you’re not getting a decent modular laptop from either company why not pick a good off the shelf big name laptop with or without modularity and just donate money to the group that’s doing work you like?
That would be another option and a win-win scenario, I like it.
I know this thread is a tad old but I’ve been considering a framework for the family laptop for a while. Problem is stocking and this recent 16 model run also had 13 orders run too. I won’t pay for a unit months in advance. It ruins certain protections from the merchant (like failure to deliver).
Instead I got a thinkpad t480 for like 400 bucks. It will do fine as a laptop mostly used for chrome, paying bills or zoom calls etc.
It’s a question worth asking, for sure.
Altruistic reasons aside there’s exactly no good reason to pay a premium for a Framework vs the options you listed. The features they have are all nice-to-have at best, gimmicky at worst. They are honestly over-hyped in Linux circles for the price.
I have a Framework and it’s been an amazing device! As a company, they have definitly followed through with their promises too and I’ve been very satisfied with them. I’ve heard that System76 devices are fine too, and they have nice stuff like coreboot and lvfs, which Framework lacks right now, but they aren’t nearly as unique as Frameworks, and in my view, are a bit generic. I would definetly reccomend the Framework! Just note that you may have to wait a while to get one, so if you need a new laptop asap (which it sounds like you don’t), you may have to look elsewhere. If you can wait though, definitly get a Framework!
sadly both of them don’t ship or even sell in Indonesia… sad sad life
As a System76 laptop owner, don’t buy them. Their product is just… bad.
I can agree with this, my Darter has horrendous battery life and had a ton of bugs that made the thing really annoying to use until a recent BIOS update. I can’t help but feel like I got burned.
Next laptop is a Framework for sure.
The same. I currently still uses my Galago Pro(galp5), but right now I have to plug the power at all times and also switched distro to Fedora which surprisingly supports this laptop better than their own Pop!_OS
I can second this. I’ve had two bricked System 76 systems because the DC jack burned itself right off the board.
