What do you believe is the underlying set of values and principles guiding Hexbear?
What do you believe the goals of people on Hexbear are?
Is it possible to analyze the beliefs that lead them to the conclusions they have, so as to better argue against them, than to call them MAGA supporters?
I myself will probably be voting Biden, for transparency, but this meme is just a gross misunderstanding of how disaffected leftists, and Marxists in general, operate, and why.
Why do you say that? They oppose Capitalism, colonialism, Imperialism, and bigotry. They support Socialism, Communism, and Anarchism. They read Marx, Lenin, and Goldman, and share memes based on Marxist theory.
On what grounds do you decide that they aren’t leftists? Is it because you disagree with their stances, as a presumed leftist, therefore anyone you disagree with cannot be a leftist? Is it because you think they are bad people, and bad people can’t be leftists? Is it just vibes?
What is your coherent and useful definition of leftism? We can compare Hexbear’s stated goals and see if it lines up better with leftism or rightism.
Being a leftist requires one to oppose capitalism.
Leninism is a blatantly capitalist system that pretends otherwise.
Also, they don’t oppose bigotry. Once someone from Hexbear said that Hexbear was more pro-trans than any trans space was, and their fellows seemed to agree with them. Paying lip service to anti-bigotry does not mean one is not an ignorant bigot to the core.
Edit: there are other problems with what you said, but frankly, I’m not going to waste my time addressing every part of the gish-Gallup.
Hexbear is anticapitalist. Like I already stated, they are Marxists and Anarchists, and oppose Capitalism.
Marxism-Leninism is not Capitalist. You don’t have to agree with it being a good idea, or support it, but to pretend that advocating for a worker state and elimination of the bourgeois class is somehow Capitalist is anti-Marxist, not just anti-Lenin.
Hexbear does oppose bigotry. It’s a bannable offense there. Some of the largest trans spaces on Lemmy are on Hexbear, so trans people agreeing that it is a good trans space doesn’t somehow indicate that they are actually pro-bigotry, that’s absurd.
Is it all just vibes from you?
Edit for your Edit: what problems are there with what I’ve said? Do you think a group of right-wingers are reading Marx and supporting trans people for shits and giggles?
What part of refusing to engage with a gish-gallop is difficult to understand?
Let’s talk about one thing: MLs aren’t socialists. And stalinists (the loudest part of Hexbear) definitely aren’t socialists. Capitalism is defined by the employee-employer relationship. MLism enshrines this relationship, and turns the state into a universal employer. That makes MLism a capitalist ideology by definition.
It wasn’t gish-gallop, I had a clear set of questions to ask, to which you ignored.
MLs are Socialists. Stalinists are also Socialists. You do not have to agree with them, in any way, but pretending they are not Socialists is a rejection of Marx himself.
Capitalism is defined not strictly by an employer-employee relationship, but necessarily by Capital production, accumulation, and control via Capitalists in an M-C-M’ circuit of commodity production. A worker state, controlled by the proletariat, is Socialist.
MLism enshrines a worker-state, and a rejection of Capitalism as the basis mode of prodiction. You can agree more with Anarchism, Libertarian Socialism, Syndicalism, Democratic Socialism, and even think MLism evil, all while recognizing it correctly as Socialist.
Have you read Marx? Critique of the Gotha Programme might help you understand Leftism a bit better.
I am neither a tankie nor brigading, but it’s telling that you haven’t actually explained any of your views, and just ran away.
You only successfully managed to say that trans people liking hexbear means hexbear isn’t against bigotry, which is utter nonsense, and that you don’t actually understand the prime distinctions of Capitalism from a Marxist perspective, causing you to misunderatand the entirety of the Marxist history.
Even if you take nothing else away from this conversation, I ask that you make the barest effort to understand Capitalism itself, what drives it, why it must be abolished, and how. Marx is certainly my preference, but Anarchists also have good, modern theory for you to read. Right now, you aren’t yet capable of distinguishing what is Capitalism and what is Socialism, so how can you ever hope to move forward?
I’ll leave you with an excerpt from Critique of the Gotha Programme (specifically because it is the closest Marx gets to outlining what a Socialist State may look like, which is also why I recommended it specifically earlier, as opposed to a more beginner-friendly work) so as to point out the important distinctions between Statist Socialism and Capitalism, most notably the fact that in State Socialism, Workers are not alienated from the product of their labor, as instead of belonging to a Capitalist who competes in markets, the products of a Worker State belong to the Workers as a whole, who democratically decide what to do with them:
“Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor.”
Im with u, but the HBers apparently came out in force. Hexbear regularly has sided with russia over Ukraine, as well, AKA imperialism.
Cashless, classless, stateless does not align with with the ccp or russia who they continually defend and whose talking points they parrot. The gish gallop u called out is a fave of theirs. Just leaving this here so theres more traces of sanity against them.
What do you believe is the underlying set of values and principles guiding Hexbear?
What do you believe the goals of people on Hexbear are?
Is it possible to analyze the beliefs that lead them to the conclusions they have, so as to better argue against them, than to call them MAGA supporters?
I myself will probably be voting Biden, for transparency, but this meme is just a gross misunderstanding of how disaffected leftists, and Marxists in general, operate, and why.
The creeps on Hexbear aren’t leftists. I’ve never come across a coherent and useful definition of “leftist” that includes them.
Why do you say that? They oppose Capitalism, colonialism, Imperialism, and bigotry. They support Socialism, Communism, and Anarchism. They read Marx, Lenin, and Goldman, and share memes based on Marxist theory.
On what grounds do you decide that they aren’t leftists? Is it because you disagree with their stances, as a presumed leftist, therefore anyone you disagree with cannot be a leftist? Is it because you think they are bad people, and bad people can’t be leftists? Is it just vibes?
What is your coherent and useful definition of leftism? We can compare Hexbear’s stated goals and see if it lines up better with leftism or rightism.
Being a leftist requires one to oppose capitalism.
Leninism is a blatantly capitalist system that pretends otherwise.
Also, they don’t oppose bigotry. Once someone from Hexbear said that Hexbear was more pro-trans than any trans space was, and their fellows seemed to agree with them. Paying lip service to anti-bigotry does not mean one is not an ignorant bigot to the core.
Edit: there are other problems with what you said, but frankly, I’m not going to waste my time addressing every part of the gish-Gallup.
Hexbear is anticapitalist. Like I already stated, they are Marxists and Anarchists, and oppose Capitalism.
Marxism-Leninism is not Capitalist. You don’t have to agree with it being a good idea, or support it, but to pretend that advocating for a worker state and elimination of the bourgeois class is somehow Capitalist is anti-Marxist, not just anti-Lenin.
Hexbear does oppose bigotry. It’s a bannable offense there. Some of the largest trans spaces on Lemmy are on Hexbear, so trans people agreeing that it is a good trans space doesn’t somehow indicate that they are actually pro-bigotry, that’s absurd.
Is it all just vibes from you?
Edit for your Edit: what problems are there with what I’ve said? Do you think a group of right-wingers are reading Marx and supporting trans people for shits and giggles?
What part of refusing to engage with a gish-gallop is difficult to understand?
Let’s talk about one thing: MLs aren’t socialists. And stalinists (the loudest part of Hexbear) definitely aren’t socialists. Capitalism is defined by the employee-employer relationship. MLism enshrines this relationship, and turns the state into a universal employer. That makes MLism a capitalist ideology by definition.
It wasn’t gish-gallop, I had a clear set of questions to ask, to which you ignored.
MLs are Socialists. Stalinists are also Socialists. You do not have to agree with them, in any way, but pretending they are not Socialists is a rejection of Marx himself.
Capitalism is defined not strictly by an employer-employee relationship, but necessarily by Capital production, accumulation, and control via Capitalists in an M-C-M’ circuit of commodity production. A worker state, controlled by the proletariat, is Socialist.
MLism enshrines a worker-state, and a rejection of Capitalism as the basis mode of prodiction. You can agree more with Anarchism, Libertarian Socialism, Syndicalism, Democratic Socialism, and even think MLism evil, all while recognizing it correctly as Socialist.
Have you read Marx? Critique of the Gotha Programme might help you understand Leftism a bit better.
Removed by mod
I am neither a tankie nor brigading, but it’s telling that you haven’t actually explained any of your views, and just ran away.
You only successfully managed to say that trans people liking hexbear means hexbear isn’t against bigotry, which is utter nonsense, and that you don’t actually understand the prime distinctions of Capitalism from a Marxist perspective, causing you to misunderatand the entirety of the Marxist history.
Even if you take nothing else away from this conversation, I ask that you make the barest effort to understand Capitalism itself, what drives it, why it must be abolished, and how. Marx is certainly my preference, but Anarchists also have good, modern theory for you to read. Right now, you aren’t yet capable of distinguishing what is Capitalism and what is Socialism, so how can you ever hope to move forward?
I’ll leave you with an excerpt from Critique of the Gotha Programme (specifically because it is the closest Marx gets to outlining what a Socialist State may look like, which is also why I recommended it specifically earlier, as opposed to a more beginner-friendly work) so as to point out the important distinctions between Statist Socialism and Capitalism, most notably the fact that in State Socialism, Workers are not alienated from the product of their labor, as instead of belonging to a Capitalist who competes in markets, the products of a Worker State belong to the Workers as a whole, who democratically decide what to do with them:
“Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor.”
-Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme
Im with u, but the HBers apparently came out in force. Hexbear regularly has sided with russia over Ukraine, as well, AKA imperialism.
Cashless, classless, stateless does not align with with the ccp or russia who they continually defend and whose talking points they parrot. The gish gallop u called out is a fave of theirs. Just leaving this here so theres more traces of sanity against them.