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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml to Socialism@lemmy.mlEnglish · 3 years ago

"But Capitalism has never killed anyone"

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"But Capitalism has never killed anyone"

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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml to Socialism@lemmy.mlEnglish · 3 years ago
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  • rah@feddit.uk
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    3 years ago

    I don’t think this is anything to do with capitalism per se, this is the weak being exploited by the strong. Big fish eats little fish. This is the way life works. Capitalism works within the same context but is not the context.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      3 years ago

      It has everything to do with capitalism because it systemically enables this sort of exploitation. People act based on the systemic pressures they’re exposed to.

      • rah@feddit.uk
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        3 years ago

        systemically enables this sort of exploitation

        I don’t think it does enable this sort of exploitation. I think the exploitation cannot be avoided, in either capitalist or any other society, including communist.

        People act based on the systemic pressures they’re exposed to.

        I think there is no system that can avoid the basic functions of biological life which includes the strong praying on the weak. Big fish eats little fish. This is life, regardless of what system evolves on top of it.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          3 years ago

          No system can entirely eliminate negative human qualities, but they certainly can mitigate them. The same reason you don’t bring an alcoholic to a bar is why you don’t want to introduce capitalism into a society. An alcoholic might be prone to drinking, but can lead a normal life if they’re not exposed to temptation of alcohol. The same way, a society can function much better once capitalist incentives are removed.

          In fact, we have definitive proof that exploitation in a capitalist society is far worse because we can look at USSR and what happened after. Under the soviet system, everyone had housing, food, healthcare, education and jobs guaranteed to them. Everyone had over 20 days vacation, and retirement guaranteed by 60. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending up on the street or not being able to retire in dignity.

          There were no oligarchs in USSR because you couldn’t accumulate wealth the way you can under capitalism. If you look at all the leaders USSR had, they all came from regular working class families. That was possible because everybody got the same education and same opportunity.

          Once USSR collapsed though, oligarchs appeared overnight, and incredible amounts of corruption followed. This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.

          • https://academic.oup.com/cje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cje/beac072/7081084?guestAccessKey=01c8dd9f-af1c-48b3-b271-eb5d3a45017c&login=false

          That’s what capitalism managed to accomplish in only a few years.

          Furthermore, here are a few academic studies on USSR showing what life was like.

          Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:

          • https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.8966&rep=rep1&type=pdf

          Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:

          • https://www.jstor.org/stable/2672986?seq=1

          A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:

          • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf

          This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.

          • https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/

          Finally, we can look at how do people who lived under communism feel once that they got a taste of capitalism

          • A remarkable 72% of Hungarians say that most people in their country are actually worse off today economically than they were under communism. Only 8% say most people in Hungary are better off, and 16% say things are about the same. In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era. This is the result of almost universal displeasure with the economy. Fully 94% describe the country’s economy as bad, the highest level of economic discontent in the hard hit region of Central and Eastern Europe. Just 46% of Hungarians approve of their country’s switch from a state-controlled economy to a market economy; 42% disapprove of the move away from communism. The public is even more negative toward Hungary’s integration into Europe; 71% say their country has been weakened by the process.

          • The most incredible result was registered in a July 2010 IRES (Romanian Institute for Evaluation and Strategy) poll, according to which 41% of the respondents would have voted for Ceausescu, had he run for the position of president. And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.

          • Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an “illegitimate state.” In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

          • A poll shows that as many as 81 per cent of Serbians believe they lived best in the former Yugoslavia -“during the time of socialism”. The survey focused on the respondents’ views on the transition “from socialism to capitalism”, and a clear majority said they trusted social institutions the most during the rule of Yugoslav communist president Josip Broz Tito. The standard of living during Tito’s rule from the Second World War to the 1980s was also assessed as best, whereas the Milosevic decade of the 1990s, and the subsequent decade since the fall of his regime are seen as “more or less the same”. 45 percent said they trusted social institutions most under communism with 23 percent choosing the 2001-2003 period when Zoran Djinđic was prime minister. Only 19 per cent selected present-day institutions.

          • 75% of Russians have expressed increasingly positive opinions about the Soviet Union over the years. Only a small portion of those surveyed said they had negative associations with the Soviet Union. The economic deficit, long lines and coupons were named by 4% of respondents each, while the Iron Curtain, economic stagnation and political repressions were named by 1% each, the Levada Center said.

          • Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u

          • rah@feddit.uk
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            3 years ago

            No system can entirely eliminate negative human qualities

            I’m glad we agree.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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              3 years ago

              My point is that this isn’t a binary situation, but rather a spectrum. Some systems do a better job than others in mitigating these problems. In general, a system needs to be structured in such a way where personal interest aligns with the common interest. Capitalism does the opposite by creating competition between individuals at the cost of social cohesion.

              • rah@feddit.uk
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                3 years ago

                this isn’t a binary situation, but rather a spectrum

                I disagree. It is binary, either the word is meaningfully applied in this context or it isn’t. You said that capitalism “enables” exploitation. Being alive enables exploitation. Capitalism may encourage exploitation, it may increase exploitation but I wouldn’t say it “enables” exploitation.

                Unless you have some argument that capitalism somehow provides some specific cause to enable exploitation which is absent from all other systems, while all other systems also provide some different cause which also happens to enable exploitation, your statement that capitalism enables exploitation is incorrect. The specific cause that enables exploitation is being alive and is nothing specific to capitalism. Capitalism is not what enables exploitation. Capitalism does not enable exploitation.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                  3 years ago

                  Yes, capitalism enables exploitation by allowing people who own capital to decide working conditions for people who do not. This is why exploitation is seen everywhere capitalism has ever been tried. I’ve also gave you a concrete example contrasting communism in USSR and the transition to capitalism along with all the horrors that followed. You just proceeded to ignore that.

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