Hi all,
Tommy from AllArk here.
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Enough Karma to post on major crypto subs
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Tommy from AllArk
That’s L1 networks for you.
Security through obsfucation is not security. You’re describing a situation where an app (one that either hasn’t been written yet or is written but you don’t know about yet) can reverse the transactions you’ve done. Sure, it’s not as simple as going on etherscan and looking at a wallet, I guess… but that’s not nearly the same.
Blockchain is a ledger. A ledger is a record of transactions. In order for the network to work, that ledger has to be verified. If the network can verify who has what in what wallet and where the money went, so can a purpose-built application or script.
I’m going to guess that’s because it probably isn’t security and comes at the cost of greatly increasing the size of the ledger, all so a script has to take a few more CPU cycles to get the information.
Security through obsfucation isn’t security but it does make you feel more secure because it’s harder for you to understand. When’s the last time you calculated a crypto transaction by hand? There’s a reason we let computers do this work.
Which network…? Because it sounds like you’re just describing L2/L3 networks in general. That was kind of my whole point with this… Once you go to L2/L3, it doesn’t really matter if you have BTC or XMR or ETH, because as you put it yourself “the coin you can get in swpaps or exchanges can have a background of being stolen”. I don’t know if that’s what happened in my case, I just know one day I woke up and all USDT (a fairly well known coin) on Polygon was gone. My point is, that could’ve been XMR and it would have likely happened the same way.
My larger point is… what good is money if you aren’t going to use it? Is it the L1 XMR network which earns you money or the DeFi options on L2/L3? If you’re just looking to HODL, then pick a coin on any L1 network, and don’t leave that network, and then I guess convert back to fiat some day or find a niche retailer. Otherwise when you go to L2 / L3 or do any of the “dAPPs” your precious XMR may be taken.
I use Monero as a currency, not for trading and betting. You’re not doing the same? Great for you, but don’t say it can’t be used like that.
Cryptocurrencies were first made as currencies, as their name states.
I’ve never talked about security, idk what you’re talking about. Btw if you can’t do simple statistics without using a computer, then there’s your problem.
Btw no specific apps are needed to trace BTC transactions, just a basic blockchain explorer and manual searching, it’s really easy.
But yea nah, there are definitely apps out there that do that, and I could make one myself. There’s no math involved or any hard things. It’s just like figuring out where money was transferred to (ex: bank account), but all transfers are public.
There’s no obfuscation that can be reversed or whatever you’re calling it, just decoy transactions which are indistinguishable from outside. Good luck finding which one of those 16 transactions attached was the real one spent, and which one of those 16 transactions before the real spend was the right one, and so on…
I don’t use XMR, period. But that’s not the point here. The point is you’re just describing L1 networks, not anything that’s special about XMR.
Can you pay your rent with XMR? No. Can you pay for a meal down the street with XMR? No. Can you buy some physical item that you need for every day life with XMR? No. Can you pay your rent with XMR? No. Can you buy virtual goods with XMR? Yeah, probably. Can you buy anything you want with an app/service/offramp that converts your XMR to fiat and pays the vendor in fiat? Yeah, most likely, but then you’re using XMR as more of a savings account with variable interest.
Can I walk over to a BTC atm and purchase bitcoin in cash? Yes! Can I buy virtual goods with BTC? Yes! Can I pay for some physical goods with BTC? Yeah, maybe kinda, but also maybe not due to US laws and retailers wanting to comply with US tax code. Under the table? Sure, but that’s true of any crytpo or really anything. Find a cool rock? Trade it for drugs! Idk.
Not the most fair comparison but my point is that XMR and BTC function the same as far as it goes being a “currency”. The only functional difference between the two is that one has more adoption, which is just a product of popularity and time. This may change for XMR. may change.
And they still are? This a weird angle. I think you may be looking at a very narrow version of currency. I’m calling currency anything that can be traded for goods and services, ideally something that’s more useful than just trading it for more currency of a different type (convert to fiat).
But then, trading you are doing, are you not? Each time you buy XMR, you buy it in fiat, which is a trade. You then trade it back to fiat, which is another trade. The cryptocurrency is volitile, so timing it is important and now we’re betting.
No, you’ve talked about hiding your transactions, which … is security. Security in your peice of mind that your transactions are private. Security by way of obsfucation, which isn’t security as I’ve explained.
You mean decoy transactions which are meant to… obsfucate the true transactions? That’s obsfuscation.
Look, I’m not a cop but I write code. An investigation would start with a real transaction that was flagged, likely via some automated means. If I were tasked with hunting this down, I would just need to write a script to do so. You’re honestly making me want to give this a try, so if you feel you can point me in the direction of a good example that I could use as a challenge, let me know. No promises for any result any time soon but it would be fun to try to understand. My gut tells me that it’s not only possible, but very easy to do.
Granted, as a human with only web based tools, it’s near impossible, I understand what you are saying. But, some humans code…
You “buy” fiat by trading your time (working). You see, if you use this angle, everything can be considered a currency or can be deemed as not a currency because you trade something else to get it.
I don’t get why you’re so obsessed with the term “security”. No, privacy and anonymity isn’t linked to the security aspect of XMR transactions. It just feels like you’re being dishonest about it.
I code too, I know what I’m talking about, it isn’t for anything that even the US government is looking to identify XMR transactions
Listen, I told you the thing that made XMR a good choice for currency usage: it’s the privacy aspect. You don’t want it? Good, XMR isn’t for you then. There are plenty of good alternatives!
Stablecoins can be controversial but are easy to use and you don’t really have to think. 1 USDT is 1 USD.
BTC is really known and accepted pretty much everywhere crypto is accepted, but has high fees and slow blockchain inclusion.
ETH is great for… making shitcoins I guess? And it’s nice that they changed to a more eco-friendly proof system.
LTC is BTC but with lower fees and fast blockchain inclusion, but it is less known.
I’m not trying to kill other cryptos, but I don’t get why you’re shit talking about XMR when you obviously don’t know the coin, and act like I said it was the best crypto in the world when I didn’t (although it’s my preferred one), and act like I said it was more secure and other nice things that I’ve just never said, or didn’t word this way.
privacy is a form of security my guy.
So google isn’t secure? Yea nah. You use security to protect your privacy, but privacy doesn’t mean security in itself.
I hardly disagree on that.
then why are you churning bro? if you don’t want privacy what is the point of even trying to fake privacy by obsfucation?
When did I say I didn’t want privacy? The systems in place to make decoys blend in transactions are perfectly secure and do indeed use cryptography.
They are in themselves secure as they work and can’t be worked around, but they do not make transactions more secure.
But come on, you must be doing this on purpose now.
buddy, crypto uses cryptography. you aren’t putting extra crypto on top of that. give me a break. how would the network handle your transactions?!
decoys are obsfucation and obsfucation isn’t security. I am not the first person to say this; go read krebs on security. I got that memo years ago.
you are increasing your privacy in one very small and tiny way: you are making it harder for newbs to easily follow your transactions. are you concerned about newbs discovering your transactions or literally anyone with any sort of programming background.
keep in mind that the cryptography you are dealing with here has to do with accessing your funds (moving or receiving) via your wallet, that’s what crypto does. by making decoy transactions, you are actually painting a big target on your back, sort of the opposite of privacy. you’re associating your transactions with decoy transactions, which means it is more likely to get noticed.
seriously kid, go read up on how a linked list works, or a tree. it doesn’t matter what you do to try to obsfucate your transactions; if they worked on the chain, they are very much traceable.
but do give me a whitepaper or example transaction to look into. I could use a laugh. and maybe consider stopping painting a target on your back but hey… you do you man.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15334570