Yes [the Kulaks did deserve being killed], and if a mob of the third world’s poor rose up and killed middle class Americans (self included) we would very much deserve it too. My recognition of this simple reality is why I’m a communist, and your denial of it is why you cling so tightly to liberalism.
I’m glad you linked source. Counter to what I perceive your intentions were, it actually shed light on how dishonest you had been in your representation of that previous comment as a part of the bigger conversation you’d had in that other thread - I’m only left to assume that you had hoped that nobody would read the source conversation in full and would instead see the basic presence of the URL and accept your own POV as fact.
Frankly, I think you should be a bit ashamed that you tried to misrepresent ALL OF THAT INVOLVED CONVERSATION in the other thread with little-no larger context presented. All for an attempt at some minor “win” in this unrelated thread?
To the dishonesty, YOU are actually the one who introduced the original premise of the “middle class being murdered” and in response, this person (in a bit of a passionate response, sure) engaged to reinforce a point they had been otherwise making throughout that fuller conversation - that American “success” in capitalism is zero sum, it always thrives on the backs of a set of conveniently ignored victims (throughout the third world especially). It IS something that we in the US conveniently ignore each and every day in the perceived “success” of capitalism, like averting your eyes and stepping over a houseless person to buy an $8 coffee. On a human level, yes, that is a horrible indefensible choice many of us make consistently to preserve a higher level of personal comfort when we could choose to do otherwise. The quiet guilt that the “wonders” of capitalism rightly have is why reagan had to make that famous speech where he told yuppies something akin to, “You don’t need to feel ashamed for owning your own fancy, personal swimming pool”
I don’t agree with every position of that other poster, but there is definitely nuance here worth discussion every day - especially as the people who probably benefit the most (are a global level) from this broken system.
It is a truly rare thing that you get someone actually educated and involved enough with a counter position to engaged in meaningful debate - for you to then betray that here by trying to reduce that entire interaction to your singular misrepresentation of a flawed point that you originated yourself ONLY makes the reader walk away with a deeper consideration of your opponent’s positions and a dismissal of your own assertions.
You either agree that it’s justified to murder the entire American middle class, or you don’t. It’s pretty simple.
I don’t really care if you assessed me as being intellectually dishonest by linking someone’s answer to a question I posed. You can call that a flawed point if you want, but they were the ones who -rather shockingly- choose to embrace democide of millions of people - including presumably themselves, their family, and friends - in the name of class warfare.
So yes, the existence of people like that shapes my view of this platform, as does this interaction with you rushing to defend their position (despite the fact that you don’t seem to sold on it yourself, since I’m guessing YOU’RE not prepared to be personally murdered for the sake of global justice and eternal class warfare).
It is a truly rare thing that you get someone actually educated and involved enough with a counter position to engaged in meaningful debate - for you to then betray that here by trying to reduce that entire interaction to your singular misrepresentation of a flawed point that you originated yourself ONLY makes the reader walk away with a deeper consideration of your opponent’s positions and a dismissal of your own assertions.
I don’t consider it a meaningful debate AT ALL.
I consider it a tiresome debate with someone who is truly fucked in the head. Someone who I later identified as suffering from sociopathy, or antisocial personality disorder.
I could have (and possibly should have) dismissed them based on their earlier comments, when they engaged in genocide apologetics, and denied the existence of the Holodomer (actually claiming conditions in the 30s were somehow "pre revolutionary). Especially after that NUT JOB blamed the Holodomer on American yellow journalism, because no number of first person (primary source) statements from Ukrainians WHO WERE ACTUALLY THERE are to be believed.
But I choose to see how they’d respond to my personal litmus test, which was, for me, the final nail in the coffin of communism: The killing of the kulaks. I frame it as the American middle class, because that is the local equivalent of the kulaks. Small time landowners, a few minor landlords, farmers. The American dream involves property ownership, and getting rid of the small time property owners, the somewhat successful peasants whose lives were made worse by communism, was the goal in that particular move.
It is possible to be a communist who believes that dekulikization is a step too far - Trotsky famously was. But that’s not the position “our friend” chose to take.
Personally I consider the killing of the kulaks to be a much more appropriate line than the one used to label tankies - which was the use of tanks in Hungary to quell a COMMUNIST uprising by Hungarians who simply wanted communism without the Soviet occupation. In other words, communists who reject stalinism. Personally I prefer PEOPLE who reject MASS MURDER, and communism had failed that test DECADES before the people in Hungary revolted.
If only that were true. But sadly, no. Here’s a link, I think: https://lemmy.world/comment/10693493
I’ll direct you to the key paragraph:
I’m glad you linked source. Counter to what I perceive your intentions were, it actually shed light on how dishonest you had been in your representation of that previous comment as a part of the bigger conversation you’d had in that other thread - I’m only left to assume that you had hoped that nobody would read the source conversation in full and would instead see the basic presence of the URL and accept your own POV as fact.
Frankly, I think you should be a bit ashamed that you tried to misrepresent ALL OF THAT INVOLVED CONVERSATION in the other thread with little-no larger context presented. All for an attempt at some minor “win” in this unrelated thread?
To the dishonesty, YOU are actually the one who introduced the original premise of the “middle class being murdered” and in response, this person (in a bit of a passionate response, sure) engaged to reinforce a point they had been otherwise making throughout that fuller conversation - that American “success” in capitalism is zero sum, it always thrives on the backs of a set of conveniently ignored victims (throughout the third world especially). It IS something that we in the US conveniently ignore each and every day in the perceived “success” of capitalism, like averting your eyes and stepping over a houseless person to buy an $8 coffee. On a human level, yes, that is a horrible indefensible choice many of us make consistently to preserve a higher level of personal comfort when we could choose to do otherwise. The quiet guilt that the “wonders” of capitalism rightly have is why reagan had to make that famous speech where he told yuppies something akin to, “You don’t need to feel ashamed for owning your own fancy, personal swimming pool”
I don’t agree with every position of that other poster, but there is definitely nuance here worth discussion every day - especially as the people who probably benefit the most (are a global level) from this broken system.
It is a truly rare thing that you get someone actually educated and involved enough with a counter position to engaged in meaningful debate - for you to then betray that here by trying to reduce that entire interaction to your singular misrepresentation of a flawed point that you originated yourself ONLY makes the reader walk away with a deeper consideration of your opponent’s positions and a dismissal of your own assertions.
You either agree that it’s justified to murder the entire American middle class, or you don’t. It’s pretty simple.
I don’t really care if you assessed me as being intellectually dishonest by linking someone’s answer to a question I posed. You can call that a flawed point if you want, but they were the ones who -rather shockingly- choose to embrace democide of millions of people - including presumably themselves, their family, and friends - in the name of class warfare.
So yes, the existence of people like that shapes my view of this platform, as does this interaction with you rushing to defend their position (despite the fact that you don’t seem to sold on it yourself, since I’m guessing YOU’RE not prepared to be personally murdered for the sake of global justice and eternal class warfare).
I don’t consider it a meaningful debate AT ALL.
I consider it a tiresome debate with someone who is truly fucked in the head. Someone who I later identified as suffering from sociopathy, or antisocial personality disorder.
I could have (and possibly should have) dismissed them based on their earlier comments, when they engaged in genocide apologetics, and denied the existence of the Holodomer (actually claiming conditions in the 30s were somehow "pre revolutionary). Especially after that NUT JOB blamed the Holodomer on American yellow journalism, because no number of first person (primary source) statements from Ukrainians WHO WERE ACTUALLY THERE are to be believed.
But I choose to see how they’d respond to my personal litmus test, which was, for me, the final nail in the coffin of communism: The killing of the kulaks. I frame it as the American middle class, because that is the local equivalent of the kulaks. Small time landowners, a few minor landlords, farmers. The American dream involves property ownership, and getting rid of the small time property owners, the somewhat successful peasants whose lives were made worse by communism, was the goal in that particular move.
It is possible to be a communist who believes that dekulikization is a step too far - Trotsky famously was. But that’s not the position “our friend” chose to take.
Personally I consider the killing of the kulaks to be a much more appropriate line than the one used to label tankies - which was the use of tanks in Hungary to quell a COMMUNIST uprising by Hungarians who simply wanted communism without the Soviet occupation. In other words, communists who reject stalinism. Personally I prefer PEOPLE who reject MASS MURDER, and communism had failed that test DECADES before the people in Hungary revolted.