You can literally enforce better conditions in farms, making factory farming practices illegal, and it’s possible we could’ve had the support required to make it happen.
If you amend your messaging and behavior even a little bit, it might still be possible.
How would we do that without dramatically reducing the amount of meat being produced?
As for the support, it sounds like you are blaming vegans for factory farmers actions. If they want to do things more humanely they are free to do it.
Its a waste of time in my opinion, and its hypocritical to be an animal activist who eats animals.
We can have a conversation about the ethical slaughterhouse in your mind but I guarantee you we will not agree on what is ethical treatment of an animal if thats the case.
…it sounds like you are blaming vegans for factory farmers actions.
You’re refusing to get this point right: I’m blaming vegans for public disinterest, which indirectly allows the factories to completely maximize profits by squeezing the animals they use.
Its a waste of time in my opinion…
I know you think that. You’re vegan.
You don’t care about the pig in the pen any more than you care about the prey in the field. What bothers you is that there are carnivores on your block. A cow could be tortured and slaughtered at 5, or live comfortably in a large field and die of natural causes, it makes no difference to you. You’re bothered by the steak on the plate. That’s your fight.
First of all, plenty of vegans are activists, doing the stuff you are talking about. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
The problem is people wanting to be animal rights activists but giving no moral consideration to animals and doing absurdly hypocritical things like contributing to the system they stand in opposition of.
Apparently you just want to be able to eat guilt free meat? Seems to be what you accomplish with your “framework” of being anti vegan, anti factory farm, but pro eating meat.
Well, your graph could just as easily support my position as it could go against it.
I see a line that could be higher if not for the personal choice of a collective of vegans, vegetarians, and generally healthier people.
You see proof vegans aren’t making a difference. Where’s your proof that the line is unaffected by vegans? Do you have anything else that proves being vegan is an effort in futility?
Why do factory farms use outdated slaughter techniques in the first place? Production quantity comes first. They will not reduce their capacity to produce meat just to make the animals lives better.
Where’s the evidence that your idea is any better than mine anyways?
I can’t predict the future if thats what you mean.
Theres plenty of evidence that reducing meat production where possible will help everyone. Theres plenty of evidence that at least a mostly plant based diet is better for personal health for most people.
Less animals suffering is a plus too but you could leave it out and still come to the conclusion that there is something behind plant based and partially plant based diets.
Less animals suffering is a plus too but you could leave it out and still come to the conclusion that there is something behind plant based and partially plant based diets.
this is a nonsequitur. my guess is you have tried plant based diet, and the amount of animal slaughter has only increased:
chart
I never claimed that me being a vegan would end animal suffering.
If you would admit that the line on your graph would go up quicker if all vegetarians and vegans went back to eating meat, then you have to also admit it would go up slower if more people went vegan, vegetarian, or simply ate 25% less meat than they normally do.
You must be able to see the math there? Do I need to send you university debate level arguments? I can find them for you if you want.
Factory farms won’t get better until demand reduces.
Got any great ideas to make factory farms more humane that won’t slow down production of meat? Is the demand going up or down over time?
Of course the answer can’t be reducing meat consumption in general, right? Dont have to be vegan to eat less meat do you now?
You can literally enforce better conditions in farms, making factory farming practices illegal, and it’s possible we could’ve had the support required to make it happen.
If you amend your messaging and behavior even a little bit, it might still be possible.
How would we do that without dramatically reducing the amount of meat being produced?
As for the support, it sounds like you are blaming vegans for factory farmers actions. If they want to do things more humanely they are free to do it.
Its a waste of time in my opinion, and its hypocritical to be an animal activist who eats animals.
We can have a conversation about the ethical slaughterhouse in your mind but I guarantee you we will not agree on what is ethical treatment of an animal if thats the case.
You’re refusing to get this point right: I’m blaming vegans for public disinterest, which indirectly allows the factories to completely maximize profits by squeezing the animals they use.
I know you think that. You’re vegan.
You don’t care about the pig in the pen any more than you care about the prey in the field. What bothers you is that there are carnivores on your block. A cow could be tortured and slaughtered at 5, or live comfortably in a large field and die of natural causes, it makes no difference to you. You’re bothered by the steak on the plate. That’s your fight.
First of all, plenty of vegans are activists, doing the stuff you are talking about. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
The problem is people wanting to be animal rights activists but giving no moral consideration to animals and doing absurdly hypocritical things like contributing to the system they stand in opposition of.
Apparently you just want to be able to eat guilt free meat? Seems to be what you accomplish with your “framework” of being anti vegan, anti factory farm, but pro eating meat.
Thank you for standing up against this hypocritical carnist defending animal abuse.
maybe you can’t, but it seems like you think that would be a good outcome.
Whats wrong with reducing meat production?
i didn’t say there is anything wrong with it. and if their plan (increased welfare standards) leads to that, i would think you would support it.
Well, one plan involves convincing western politicians and the companies that pay for them, to self regulate. The other involves personal choice.
So I guess I chose the easy one.
Also vegans do participate in animal activism of course. They just won’t argue for better ways to slaughter animals.
but if it’s ineffective, then it is no better.
Well, your graph could just as easily support my position as it could go against it.
I see a line that could be higher if not for the personal choice of a collective of vegans, vegetarians, and generally healthier people.
You see proof vegans aren’t making a difference. Where’s your proof that the line is unaffected by vegans? Do you have anything else that proves being vegan is an effort in futility?
I don’t believe you have any proof of this. there is no mechanism by which reducing demand would improve factory farms.
Why do factory farms use outdated slaughter techniques in the first place? Production quantity comes first. They will not reduce their capacity to produce meat just to make the animals lives better.
Where’s the evidence that your idea is any better than mine anyways?
i didn’t present any other idea. i said you don’t have any evidence your idea holds water.
I can’t predict the future if thats what you mean.
Theres plenty of evidence that reducing meat production where possible will help everyone. Theres plenty of evidence that at least a mostly plant based diet is better for personal health for most people.
Less animals suffering is a plus too but you could leave it out and still come to the conclusion that there is something behind plant based and partially plant based diets.
this is a nonsequitur. my guess is you have tried plant based diet, and the amount of animal slaughter has only increased: chart
We’ve had this argument like twice already.
I never claimed that me being a vegan would end animal suffering.
If you would admit that the line on your graph would go up quicker if all vegetarians and vegans went back to eating meat, then you have to also admit it would go up slower if more people went vegan, vegetarian, or simply ate 25% less meat than they normally do.
You must be able to see the math there? Do I need to send you university debate level arguments? I can find them for you if you want.
i’m not interested in debate. i’m interested in provable claims.
Should I use another commodity that saw reduced demand, which caused the supply to dwindle? Asbesthos? Does that work? Maybe cigarrettes?
What kind of proof do you want and I’ll go find it for you how’s that.
as i can’t prove a counterfactual, i wouldn’t make any such claim. i have no reason to believe that production could increase any faster.
I mean I can’t convince you that demand affects supply if you simply don’t think they are related.
you did say it would reduce it, but all the evidence is that is not true.
You think, that I think, me personally being vegan will be the tipping point that causes a down trend in your graph?
and you still haven’t seemed to grasp the lack of evidence for your claim.
this is a different claim than you made before
What claim did I make before?
Better means less of them, less demand for them.