France has enforced a strict ban on religious signs at schools since the 19th Century, including Christian symbols such as large crosses, in an effort to curb any Catholic influence from public education.
It has been updating the law over the years to reflect its changing population, which now includes the Muslim headscarf and Jewish kippa, but abayas have not been banned outright.
So going by the article, some religious clothing is outright banned while crosses are allowed as long as they are not large?
Hm. Not sure about school, because I have little reason to go there. But I certainly have shirts that are work or grandma unfriendly, or that I would only wear around devote christians I trust. With that, I wouldn’t be opposed with a ban for shirts that are created to offend specific religions. It’s a different side of a very similar coin.
I was wondering how you’d word such a rule. Is the symbol forbidden, or wearing it with some intent? What’s if it’s dual use, a piece of clothes but also associated with a religion? Can I wear a Kufiya that can be viewed as a political statement? Is that okay? It also touches religion. What about a bit more subtle symbols, a fish instead of wearing a cross? It’s kind of a slippery slope.
Or the heavy metal t-shirt i mentioned. These are most of the times not religious at all but use christian or northern mythology and those imagery. They also do not mock religion except you’re a super insecure fundamentalist.
Do we only forbid religious imagery, or also that of cults? Is there a line? Can I wear my spaghetti monster shirt? Wear pirate insignia?
I’m genuinely interested in how the french people/legislator solve the issue with the whole thing being a slippery slope and kind of vague. I’m a fan of laicism myself.
The thing is, I don’t have an answer to all of these questions.
On the other hand, I know pagan bands with songs about “Killing all the christian heathens coming to colonize scandinavia”. About “Crushing the roman christians coming to take germanic women with their fairy tales of a weak god”. (BTW, this is explicitly not about german nationalism. There are nazis abusing these terms of skandinavian/germanic origins, many of them, but this isn’t part of that). Those are what I meant when I said: I’m not sure if I want to discuss those with a christian I don’t necessarily trust. Because face it, norse mythology was colonized by roman christians. maybe for good, maybe not, I don’t know.
And in another direction, a lot of metal / heavy metal / rock imagery is based around pushing and prodding and poking christians. Not just subtly. They thrived on this to establish themself as counter-culture. “You are Christians. We are sons of satan. We listen to the other music.” For those, I can very much find a foundation in christian religion. Like, look at denmark. Burning a stack of paper shouldn’t be a big thing, but now they are creating laws against burning the Koran. Not sure how I feel about this.
In that light, I’d very much be in favor of a school uniform, or a specification of unicolor shirts / t-shirts without imagery, I have to say. Concessions are bound to be abused in every way, with that hat on.
The sad thing to me personally is: IMO, we should embrace diversity. Someone wearing a weird cloth on top of their hair should be a source of curiosity. It should be an exposure to something new and an option to grow and reflect and to learn they are just a person, just a bit different. Like the first time you try to cook for a vegetarian, a vegan, or try to date a lesbian.
Thx for enlightening me with the metal. I mostly enjoy fun and pirate metal. I always forget those people also exist.
I’m not sure with the school uniform. There are advantages to it. But I’m also liberal and children might as well learn how to dress and express their individualism early in school. Just have some sane rules around it.
But I’m okay with what the french state does. It’s just saying we, the state, can’t get confused with religion. And to make sure, our employees can’t wear religious clothing while on duty.
So going by the article, some religious clothing is outright banned while crosses are allowed as long as they are not large?
All crosses are banned. Totally unacceptable. Source: I’m a 20yo french.
What about heavy metal band shirts with an upside-down cross on it?
Hm. Not sure about school, because I have little reason to go there. But I certainly have shirts that are work or grandma unfriendly, or that I would only wear around devote christians I trust. With that, I wouldn’t be opposed with a ban for shirts that are created to offend specific religions. It’s a different side of a very similar coin.
I was wondering how you’d word such a rule. Is the symbol forbidden, or wearing it with some intent? What’s if it’s dual use, a piece of clothes but also associated with a religion? Can I wear a Kufiya that can be viewed as a political statement? Is that okay? It also touches religion. What about a bit more subtle symbols, a fish instead of wearing a cross? It’s kind of a slippery slope.
Or the heavy metal t-shirt i mentioned. These are most of the times not religious at all but use christian or northern mythology and those imagery. They also do not mock religion except you’re a super insecure fundamentalist.
Do we only forbid religious imagery, or also that of cults? Is there a line? Can I wear my spaghetti monster shirt? Wear pirate insignia?
I’m genuinely interested in how the french people/legislator solve the issue with the whole thing being a slippery slope and kind of vague. I’m a fan of laicism myself.
The thing is, I don’t have an answer to all of these questions.
On the other hand, I know pagan bands with songs about “Killing all the christian heathens coming to colonize scandinavia”. About “Crushing the roman christians coming to take germanic women with their fairy tales of a weak god”. (BTW, this is explicitly not about german nationalism. There are nazis abusing these terms of skandinavian/germanic origins, many of them, but this isn’t part of that). Those are what I meant when I said: I’m not sure if I want to discuss those with a christian I don’t necessarily trust. Because face it, norse mythology was colonized by roman christians. maybe for good, maybe not, I don’t know.
And in another direction, a lot of metal / heavy metal / rock imagery is based around pushing and prodding and poking christians. Not just subtly. They thrived on this to establish themself as counter-culture. “You are Christians. We are sons of satan. We listen to the other music.” For those, I can very much find a foundation in christian religion. Like, look at denmark. Burning a stack of paper shouldn’t be a big thing, but now they are creating laws against burning the Koran. Not sure how I feel about this.
In that light, I’d very much be in favor of a school uniform, or a specification of unicolor shirts / t-shirts without imagery, I have to say. Concessions are bound to be abused in every way, with that hat on.
The sad thing to me personally is: IMO, we should embrace diversity. Someone wearing a weird cloth on top of their hair should be a source of curiosity. It should be an exposure to something new and an option to grow and reflect and to learn they are just a person, just a bit different. Like the first time you try to cook for a vegetarian, a vegan, or try to date a lesbian.
Thx for enlightening me with the metal. I mostly enjoy fun and pirate metal. I always forget those people also exist.
I’m not sure with the school uniform. There are advantages to it. But I’m also liberal and children might as well learn how to dress and express their individualism early in school. Just have some sane rules around it.
But I’m okay with what the french state does. It’s just saying we, the state, can’t get confused with religion. And to make sure, our employees can’t wear religious clothing while on duty.
you forgot the /s
I didn’t forget shit.