As a confirmed video watcher, hexbear’s one and only, another pretty goated take from F.D.in regards to how white leftists (in actuality) and “leftists”(libs) are pretty poor at race relations and often quite literally trigger black folks in argumentation and rhetoric by madlibbing electoral candidates and movements with the same sentences otherwised used by blatant racist reactionaries. Summary for non-readers (read fellow Amerikkkans) over.
Mandami, from what I’ve seen, is smarter than this (maybe some of y’all should be forced to take Africana studies courses as part of re-education?), and my skepticism of him is funny for a bunch of other reasons. White leftists and liberals (collectively) are notoriously bad at navigating black skepticism, but frankly, at this point, I am of the belief that in the context of the U.S., that is gonna have to be a family issue (read black) to resolve internally, especially since the liberal brain worms seem to have successfully infiltrated us as a group.
It is why I sympathize with a lot of the non-US members who get irritated at us calling them doomers in regards to our revolutionary potential (generally talking US-Canada, but vaguely western countries all kinda apply). A lot of rebuttals I’ve seen towards them give the same chauvinist vibes I often see non-black leftists come into black-spaces with, which is coupled with anger at… well-earned skepticism?
Anyway, the soapbox under me is creaking, and my feet hurt.
Edit: Steps back on soapbox, I do think there is a bit too much grace for a lot of Black elders as well as a bit too much faith in electoralism, but that comes with F.D. I think he is technically right about the low information voter comment he made (how leftists really need to be careful in how they use it in black spaces), but I feel he implies that it isn’t true when in my experience it generally is, but wtv, I’m just pre-empting some potential arguments I don’t care for.
full comment here but i think it’s not even being “pretty poor in race relations” but instead is just a total misrepresenting of class struggle that older black voters are much more likely to pick up on because white workers have repeatedly betrayed them in the past in exchange for these lofty soc dem reforms that i dont think younger black voters will have picked up on because of how younger white people are becoming much more proletarianized again.
Damnit, I was hoping to save the historic betrayal of black workers in exchange for benefits as a clapback if someone got salty and dismissive. I was excited to mention the people’s party and everything.
sorry, i know all of this because i read Losurdo’s book Class Struggle btw
/hj
i first started learning about this through Chunka Luta Network’s work + Walter Rodney and Franz Fanon’s writings, but I also sincerely believe that Losurdo has the best all in one argument for beating down on white cishet (it also incorporates the role of gender in class society too!) class reductionists who want to dismiss/downplay race/gender’s role in how class is determined in modern society
class reductionist who want to dismiss/downplay race/gender’s role in how class is determined in modern society
You’re gonna start a fight
/hjI haven’t seen that one, so I’ll add to to my backlog after I get through the literal pile of books I still want to get through (excluding my copy of Capital, which I have on indefinite hiatus)
i feel you so much there, the reason i call myself a “sympathizer” instead of a full on ML is because i feel like i havent read nearly enough of the important theory in my list to call myself one 
ML is because I feel like I haven’t read nearly enough of the important theory in my list to call myself one
I feel you, though it’s more my practice is weak and lacking, bouncing between combatting reactionary tendencies in some people I know, combatting doomerism and adventurism in others, work, study, and sleep, I don’t think I do enough to call myself an ML or commie.
Also, orgs near me seem to be focused on events that occur primarily during working hours or when I’m still asleep on weekends, while also being fairly distant.
Also, orgs near me
wish i had literally any org near me, closest org afaik is over 2 hours away from me, i tried to get involved in setting up a regional DSA chapter when i was younger but the main organizers fell apart after only a few months and since it was so early in the process + none of the other people involved were even that close to me (within 30 min) i didnt feel like i could take up the torch
my 2 cents: he’s right that bernie sanders doesnt correctly address race issues, but it’s because bernie is a soc dem who (whether willingly or mistakenly it doesnt really matter) misunderstands and misrepresents class struggle, and that to actually combat capitalism ignoring/downplaying the racial aspect of classes in capitalism is to totally misrepresent reality and thus have no chance of actually achieving real meaningful progress towards socialism.
even though he does mention that this vid was specifically directed toward electoralists, he still took a shot at revolutionary socialists anyways so alongside him totally ignoring bernie sanders other glaring issues (laptog for imperialism etc.) which arise from the same place as his lack of attention to black issues, i think this was among FD Signifier’s bad videos
I think a lot of what he had to say was more relevant toward how one should address the black electorate. Whether it’s for Bernie, Zohranz or a revolutionary movement, if you want the support of these people, the white left needs to get it’s shit together. I think electoral campaigns are good “practice” for doing so.
Also, I think you’ll enjoy Signifier going head to head with someone to his left here: https://youtu.be/SPOYP8LnwOU
(@MizuTama@hexbear.net you might like the linked video as well)
I went ahead and watched both videos, also watched Deculturation’s livestream from last year where he joined forces with a few other people to review the time he called into the Majority Report to call out Sam Seder and the crew for being liberal Zionists. It hit me that what Sam Seder had said, where he generalized the definition of anti-zionism to the point of absurdity and only then did he agree with it[1], he can’t just accept anti-Zionism and support for Palestinian liberation on its own merits, only when it’s framed as a Westernized liberal project. But it screwed with me, because this is exactly what Mamdani said on the mayoral debate and he got praise for it: Israel has a right to exist as a state with equal rights. I brought it up last month when he won that we were giving Mamdani a pass for a liberal zionist take (granted, in a mayoral debate that shouldn’t have anything to do with Israel) and I even got some pushback here.
if you’re not familiar, his formulation was “Really I think anti-zionism was invented by the Zionists. Because my belief is just in democracy and equal rights, which apparently is anti-Zionism” ↩︎
Hey yeah after I linked that video I bounced over to the Seder video and watched part of it as well.
I don’t think we need to deep dive on this, because you and I agree on the facts, but I’ll throw out a perspective.
I don’t think correctly criticising a view and “allowing a pass” are mutually exclusive. It needs to be in context, of course. For Zohran, this compromise can be allowed because he is a democratic socialist candidate running for election in an extremely right wing country; anglo socialists should want to see this guy win, imo. I don’t think he is pulling anyone to the right with his take, just doing what he can to placate both sides (such is electoralism). I also don’t think his statement reflects his genuine personal view, but that barely matters.
If it were a PSL candidate, I would hate to see any sort of “pass” offered, since the context is different. Sam Seder also doesn’t get to deliver any sort of take like that because he has nothing at stake. Not to mention the foreign policy views of a mayoral candidate don’t really matter at all.
Historically, revolutionary movements have had (and will have) to do much dirtier and uncomfortable things in order to win. In context, I see Zohran pacing the way for Zohran 3.0 to be fully and clearly anti-Zionist, but I think that it is not a stance he can officially adopt in 2025 and expect to win, he’s already far to close to being nuked from orbit.
I think a lot of what he had to say was more relevant toward how one should address the black electorate. Whether it’s for Bernie, Zohranz or a revolutionary movement, if you want the support of these people, the white left needs to get it’s shit together. I think electoral campaigns are good “practice” for doing so.
yes something that (i hope) is implicit in my comment is that these older black voters that are the majority of the black electorate are important in any revolution because they have the most first hand experience of white workers betraying black workers which is something any hopeful revolutionary in the west/the US especially must deal with in its entirety. slight pushback/clarification, i believe white revolutionaries need to learn how to identify which populations are revolutionary and where the most likely betrayals will occur to both try and mitigate those betrayals (i.e. convince as many white workers as possible not to betray for soc dem benefits) and also actually help organize the most populations with the most revolutionary potential (i.e. gain the trust of black workers).
Also, I think you’ll enjoy Signifier going head to head with someone to his left here: https://youtu.be/SPOYP8LnwOU
hahaha i bet i would, deculturation is a part of the “decolonial ML” circle of people i used to follow on twitter, thanks for the link comrade!
Well I appreciate the conversation you and Mizu offered in the thread here, even if I didn’t have a whole lot to contribute myself! Interested to hear your thoughts if you get around to watching it, I respect FD for engaging
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Thanks for the link, FD really just be showing up in mad podcasts.
Edit: I saw the description, and I completely memory-holed the PF Jung appearance he did previously. I think his criticisms of engaging the Black electorate are valid and are often mistakes even more solidified leftists make, but some of his exclusions as well as general decisions come off as a tactical mix with being soc dem, and I am still unsure of the mix but would lean pretty 40/60, spitballing.
I find the idea of the PF stream gross, but did actually see it in full out of morbid curiosit,y and you can see he’s basically being the non-confrontation Black guy with some degree of intention. There is something to be said about appearing on their platform instead of bringing them to yours regarding platforming, but I still generally disliked the move, as frankly, I don’t have much faith in anyone who makes spouting the evil rhetoric their job at being misguided. I guess one could argue agitprop of Jung’s audience if they wanted to be INSANELY generous.
This is me riffing before starting the stream btw, gonna listen to it for a bit to keep certified video watcher status since I’m discussing it and will return if anything inside changes my thoughts.
I appreciate your thoughts, don’t have much to offer from my end. I respect him showing up for the discussion in the link and sort of “taking it on the chin” in their conversation
I appreciate your thoughts, don’t have much to offer from my end. I respect him showing up for the discussion in the link and sort of “taking it on the chin” in their conversation
After watching it, I think the only thing I would really change about my thoughts is the split regarding ideology/tactics leaning a lot more towards tactics. Most of the criticisms levied here were then covered in the podcast.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
FD, outside of his analysis of black culture and leftist relations to black folk, is often weak and still pretty lib-coded. A decent part of that I think is lived experience over theoretical comprehension, e.g., my complaints in my other comment. Though it has been honestly a while since I’ve engaged with this type of YouTube content, so maybe I am misremembering. I found the video very good as a primer for white baby leftists on being careful in engaging with black people and mistakes to avoid. But his explanations were fairly lacking, but frankly, anyone who needs this message probably isn’t reading theory, notably black liberation theory, to the point of even properly engaging in the explanation, and obviously doesn’t have the lived experience to combat it.
I didn’t find his address of bernie to be particularly problematic, frankly, FD does attack revolutionary socialists, but in addressing electoralists, I think him drawing the distinction in any capacity, would cause the exact tuning out and lecturing he was talking about (further than has already happened in the comments of that vid lol). If we’re talking about tactics, I think leaving that unmentioned in a video this short with the purpose it serves is correct, considering the tendencies of the people he’s trying to address.
Though, the cynic in me thinks the primary effectiveness will derive from it hitting lib white guilt more than anything else. I don’t think this video was bad for what it was intended to be, but anyone who has engaged in the L of ML shouldn’t really need this video to begin with.
yes i should say i think of his vids of “good vs bad” through my mindset as a “decolonial ML sympathizer” lol. his bad vids are all mostly b side channel stuff like this where he wades into more explicit political stuff that i think exposes his lack of serious study into these areas. i should also say I hold him to a higher standard as someone who regularly platforms much more radical people than himself if that makes any sense.
to be more specific i wish he would connect bernie’s weakness in addressing the concerns of black people to his total lack of concern for the colonial subjects outside of the US’ borders, possible i missed this (im drunk rn i will admit). i think i get where you’re coming from as far as the focus on electoralists being necessary for the vid, but i still think there is room to make it more clear without dipping into that territory of doing that lecturing? idk, something like “even many of you more ‘principled’ revolutionary socialists ignore this”? i am not black so as far as exact wording and what not i dont want to make any firm claims lol
i guess my wish is that he will utilize his incredible ability to hit white lib guilt buttons and gently nudge them in a more revolutionary, scientific socialist way if that makes sense.
possible i missed this (im drunk rn i will admit).
I love analysis while drunk, so I relate. And no, you didn’t miss it. I think a part of it is him having the role of the Black Lorax. It’s something him and other cornbreadtubers (the name is ironic) riff on about him but I think he does take with some degree of seriousness and frankly a lot of “leftists” that haven’t found some sort of ideological coherence still heavily fuck with bernie. They’d click off faster than a gamer says a slur if he called Bernie an imperialist dog. Hell, we’re still catching shit for many leftists not voting for Kamala out of principle.
Besides, the same blind spot Bernie has, a lot of these leftists have frankly. Bernie’s fairly blatant imperialism works because of the class essentialism that is fairly prevalent in the Western left. Bernie does it as an imperial dog, but I think the reflection seen would lead to defensiveness and reactionary tendencies. JD is still actively playing the same role he was when I first found him. He’s a baby’s guide to The Black Question, and I think his idea is that by platforming others, he can give them the opportunity to pull a Luxembourg. I do agree he could lean a little further into the left regarding that, though, as he often has throwaway comments for other, much further left ideas in a way that pokes fun as well as generates interest. It likely is part of his blind spot, regardless of the tactical intent, though.
think we largely agree here, hopefully final clarification of myself lol but i dont think FD is harmful to the left like i think typical breadtubers are, for instance iirc he has more than one vid in which he makes fun of people that use the word “tankie” which many other people on “breadtube” would never dare to do. when i want him to connect bernie’s (rhetorical) failings towards his failings towards externally colonized people i dont want him to call him Bernie $$ander$$ (as funny as that would be) or anything like that, dont even have to use any mean words like imperialism, just put something in the vid to hint at the connection idk if that makes sense
btw cornbreadtube is one of my favorite yet wasted concepts on yt, ik it was never serious but tweaking breadtubes nose in how white and rich they are was an incredible idea that never really fully came to fruition like i would have liked lol
yeah, never surrender, don’t get old, and spit in their face every chance you get
The DNC holds the electorate in contempt and does not, can not be reformed. The party should not have any life support, including Zorhan.
Did you watch the video?
I found a YouTube link in your post. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
