Pope Francis condemned the “very strong, organised, reactionary attitude” in the US church and said Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.
Pope Francis has blasted the “backwardness” of some conservatives in the US Catholic Church, saying they have replaced faith with ideology and that a correct understanding of Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.
Francis’ comments were an acknowledgment of the divisions in the US Catholic Church, which has been split between progressives and conservatives who long found support in the doctrinaire papacies of St John Paul II and Benedict XVI, particularly on issues of abortion and same-sex marriage.
Now the pos conservatives are gonna start calling the pope woke. 🤣🤣🤣
They’re already doing that, have been for a long time. I have a Baptist coworker who thinks Catholicism isn’t real Christianity…
I had a Catholic coworker who said some of her Catholic relatives were becoming “Christians”, which turned out to mean Evangelicals.
I had a Catholic coworker who said some of her Catholic relatives were becoming “Christians”, which turned out to mean Evangelicals.
in the US they refer to Protestants as “Christians”, mainstream Christianity is made up of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants
Right—my point is that my coworker (like the previously-mentioned Baptist) was implying that Catholics were distinct from Christians, in spite of being Catholic herself.
I was raised Catholic and the distinction was always made between Catholics and Christians. I didn’t really understand that Catholics were a subtype of Christians until someone pointed it out to me when I was a teenager - I just thought Christians was a catch-all term for non-Catholics that believed in jesus.
What country were you raised in? I was raised Catholic in the Philippines and in the US and it was made explicitly clear in my education that Catholics are Christian.
I’m from Ohio and there is a massive Catholic community in my hometown and “Christian” as a term was always used as a throwaway term for the various non-denominational evangelical sects.
Catholics and Protestants do not get along, even today. When I went to college and people thought I grew up Catholic, they would try to “convert” me away from “ancestor worship and idolatry.”
I’m from New Jersey
My father made that exact distinction and he grew up in Iowa.
Baptist coworker who thinks Catholicism isn’t real Christianity…
I’ve seen a lot of that and not just recently.
All religions think all other religions are not “real”, because of their “There can be only one!” Highlander shit.
I think all religions are just fake copycats of the one true god.
Praise be Flying Spaghetti Monster
Ramen
Pork Belly
To be fair, it isnt; but then neither is Evangelicism or Mormonism or any of these other wackadoo cults within which these assholes conflate their hatred and fear with faith.
What makes Catholicism fake Christianity in your view? Any faith that believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God that died for the sins of humankind meets the threshold, imo. The Catholic Church fits comfortably within that definition.
If I were being charitable I’d label these heretical creeds as Paulity. They have very little to do with the words and deeds of Christ, or living up to them, and far more to do with how Saul of Tarsus interpreted them.
You may recall the Catholic Church was born out of the first Nicaean Council, where they canonized the four gospels that best reinforced the idea of the supremacy of the Roman state, and burned the hundreds of other so-called “gnostic” gospels, which (judging by the content of the few that survived) far better encapsulate what I would consider “real Christianity”.
That said, the whole “No True Scotsman” fallacy really isn’t worth pursuing. It’s been this way since 325 CE, and there really is no painting a happy face on one of the most destructive and inhumane ideologies history has to offer. No matter what my opinion may be, you are correct in pointing out that the Paulity is the institution that is currently regarded as “Real Christianity”, as sick and anti-Christian as it may be.
All Christians use some interpretation of Bible and Christ.
From the outsiders it’s a bit funny to observe these squabbles and the heretic accusations.
You may recall the Catholic Church was born out of the first Nicaean Council, where they canonized the four gospels that best reinforced the idea of the supremacy of the Roman state, and burned the hundreds of other so-called “gnostic” gospels, which (judging by the content of the few that survived) far better encapsulate what I would consider “real Christianity”.
I believe you are mistaken. That was next big council. The 27 books were finalized by a man who attended the Nicaean Council. When he got back he wrote a letter stating which books he considered to be canon.
Well there is all that child sex abuse.
That is an institutional failing of the Catholic Church, it was never endorsed as a part of the Church’s dogma. While I would encourage any Catholic to ask themselves if they really should continue to support an organization that hasn’t done even close to enough to reckon with their many sins over the past two millennia, I still think it’s silly to act like they’re not Christian.
Fucking kids ≠ following the teachings of Jesus in my book.
This is also how the Catholic Church sees it.
Well then you can include baptists in that too.
the only difference between the priests and pastures is the “born again” churches do not have a central structure to follow up on it so they are all just one offs.
There’s a ton of it in protestant churches too. The national Baptist church is under federal investigation for it right now. The US has always had an easier time hating Catholics.
I mean, most protestant Christians dislike Catholicism, that’s why they are called protestants after all.
The new part is American evangelicals and other extremists thinking that catholicism not being conservative enough…
Conservative Protestants have been saying that for a very long time though. The attitude is so pervasive that my wife, who grew up Catholic (but has not been one for decades), has to be reminded that Catholics are Christians.
Not for nothing but that claim is hardly new. Goes back to the Reformation.
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To be fair, even the super conservative Catholics aren’t into this pope. Benedict was their jam.
There a whole YouTube channel by some ex fox host called church militant… It’s all about hating gays and lesser religions. They talk shit about the Pope all the time.
It’s like everything in America is just power struggles, selfishness, greed, and crime. There’s no God or respect for life here. The “good guys” don’t even go after the “bad guys” because the bad guys are ahead now. People are so naive here they think heartless crimes are not happening when it’s right under their nose. Sometimes the good guys even get used in the plot. Just look at all the old politicians and Americans that got roped in Rogers stones mob puppeting of Trump. America had a mob affiliate for president. I think that puts in stone… Americas bullshit. It’s going to take decades to get trust and genuine patriotism back.
I wonder where do they think it all comes from?
Even when I was one I had zero interest in that game.
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Even the most minimal amount of compassion is a sin to these people. They’re just straight up evil at this point.
Didn’t they recently called Jesus / Christianity woke?
You know you fucked up bad when even the Pope is saying, “Whoa, slow it down there with the fascism, bud”.
American Catholics have largely voted Democrat for much of the last century. This flip-flop to voting Republican is relatively recent.
It seems to me to be a bit of a religio-coup. Bishops have some autonomy, and Priests some as well. It’s become increasingly common that both are in opposition to Rome on certain behaviors related to politics, and exactly how strongly they should be pushing people to vote and for what reasons. The dehumanization of Biden (publicly refusing him Eucharist) for his nuanced pro-choice views is in direct contradiction of papal behavior going back at least to the turn of the 20th century. Telling people that in voting, any sin is forgivable except being pro-choice… well, there’s no basis in Canon Law for that attitude.
I live in a very Catholic area, and have a lot of Catholic family. Talking to them, they mention their priests say “you can vote for either party, as long as they’re pro-life”. The Abortion issue is not the only or greatest issue to Rome. It is AN issue, but disagreeing with the Church is generally not going to earn their full enmity unless you are preaching your disagreement. Biden (the target of that local church smear campaign) is absolutely not preaching pro-choice to anyone.
Pope Francis is right to be saying that because American Catholic Leadership has gone WAY astray from what Catholicism allows or mandates of them.
Conservatives are mostly christian, but if they aren’t catholic the pope has little sway over what they do. And they love dissing catholics so yes they will more than they have been already.
Time for a reality check on the history of Popeing
If you have a throwaway email to see comments on the Newsmax site, it is Catholics and whatnot saying the Pope isn’t the real part of the religion anymore.
my god that is the best meme ever
Happy to share!
Thanks, ButtholeSpiders!
These christians will drop their Pope before they drop their politics
They already have. Only Roman Catholics really care what the Pope has to say. There are far more Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian in the US than Catholics.
The Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic church, it’s always been the case that only Catholics really care about what he says.
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The Anglican Church is Protestant. Pretty sure they don’t like being called Catholic, they had a whole thing about that.
Just a minor tiff really, just some spilled tea and crumbled crumpets really
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No, Catholic just means universal. This most Christian denominations claim to the the Catholic, aka, Universal Church. In other words, they mean to say they are the correct denomination.
In normal conversation, Catholic Church equals Roman Catholic Church.
See e.g. wiki:
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, …
That doesn’t change the fact that the Anglican Church also considers itself the Catholic Church.
The Act of Supremacy 1558 renewed the breach, and the Elizabethan Settlement charted a course enabling the English church to describe itself as both Reformed and Catholic.
*catholicism
For reasons I can’t explain, many of those denominations don’t even recognize the catholic church as being Christian.
The problem is much more fundamental than this. I have repeatedly had to explain to adults, in many different contexts the subset/superset relationship. People do not know that you can be part of a superset that describes all things in a subset. For some reason you are able to graduate high school without every actually figuring this out
No Child Left Behind really did give out a lot of diplomas to dummies…
That’s always boggled my mind.
I had many childhood baptist friends who claimed with disgust that the Catholic Church isn’t Christian.
I just can’t see the reason (there isn’t any) other than needing a conservative out group.
I just can’t see the reason (there isn’t any) other than needing a conservative out group.
The reason is simple, actually. The Protestant revolution was ostensibly started with Martin Luther advertising that the pope was the antichrist.
Protestantism was basically the practice of declaring Catholicism to be a false Church. Then it evolved and they got more cordial. After 300 years of bloodshed
Technically, at the time of Martin Luther, the Roman Church was corrupt AF, so he wasn’t totally wrong. It kind of still is, but hey, who’s counting.
This is a true statement. But glass houses and stones. Let’s not forget he wrote the infamous “On the Jews and Their Lies”, and started supporting their persecution and outright murder. Many believe that his rhetoric directly caused the antisemitic attitudes of the Nazi Party. The aforementioned book was incredibly popular among Nazis.
And the Lutherans are smart to denounce that book. Catholics could learn from a religion deciding it actually did stupid things and fixing itself.
I just didn’t think it was any more or less corrupt as any other Church.
It all seems like an unironic no-true-yorkshirrman comedy sketch.
When I was in the Catholic Church they abused us 17 hours a day!
That’s nothing! When I was in the Protestant Church they abused us 27 hours a day and killed us before bed time.
Etc.
I feel like Martin Luther was an idealist, an innocent “true believer” who got shocked when he saw the harsh reality of what was going on in Rome.
Then he got his reform, established a new Church… and that’s where he went wrong, because sooner or later Churches gonna Church.
TY! All those names are familiar but the events are not.
TIL.
I’m pretty sure the reverse is true.
There are some differences in the details of each denominations beliefs enough to mark some Christians as not real Christians. If only God could just make an announcement over the PA to clear things up…
Related: How many denominations only allow their own denomination to take Communion?
That ship has already sailed - I was just with my conservative uncle this last weekend when he complained that the current pope is “woke”
To these people, their political ideology is their religion
Absolutely agree. I am certain ifwe’re real and appeared in person and spouted half the stuff attributed to him in the gospel they would call him “woke” too.
Absolutely no doubt. Kind of surprised no one has done a video series where you anonomize Jesus’s teachings, then read them back to conservative Christians and ask what they think about them
The results would be hilarious, no doubt
Probably because they don’t want Tucker Carlson siccing a mob on them
The pope? They’ll drop Jesus Himself if it suits them
They already have. Been reports of congregations who have complained the the words of Jesus are too woke and weak…
does anyone know off the top of their head how/when Christianity became so tightly associated with the Republican party? No way it was always so extreme in US history
My favourite bumper sticker ever said: The moral majority is neither
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Interesting, I’m assuming that politicians who bought into this evangelical pandering benefited from this by getting votes/support?
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They dropped the Jesus Christ of the New Testament half a century ago, and even then they pretended he was somehow as white as mayonnaise, so why not drop his earthly mouthpiece?
Honestly, I consider that a win. A huge reason I left the catholic faith wasn’t because of the religion itself, but because of the people who claimed to follow Jesus but in practice did nothing like Jesus.
yout are not wrong given survey data
Religion is the biggest scourge against humans. Controlling behavior, brainwashing the young and stolen untold trillions of $$. Fuck religion. They all need to be labeled as cults and treated as harshly.
Religion, at its core, is basically rules that state “don’t be a dick.” Unfortunately, all of the dicks didn’t get the message.
“Cult” is just something the big congregation calls the small congregation.
“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”
We’re doing pretty good on the king front, lets work on the priests a bit
I would settle for taxing them.
IDK, if we’re comparing scourges against humanity I’d say “the rich” in general are worse, be they kings, CEOs, religious icons, politicians, or whatever. Their pursuit of money and the power to keep that money corrupts everything. They ruin everything from companies to countries and even religions (makes them even worse).
Really though, the most evil thing is cancer. It kills indiscriminately and tortures its victims the whole way. Even if you win, you never get the peace of knowing it’s truly gone. True evil.
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Calling religion the biggest scourge on humanity is a huge exageratrion. I’d probably say slavery is significantly worse, and human trafficking shows no signs of stopping. Capitalism is also clearly worse, and it’s the most impactful force today. A large reason religion, and specifically Christianity, has gotten worse in recent years is because of the influence of capitalism.
Agreed.
I’ll gain an iota of respect for Frankie and Catholics when they unilaterally decide to stop donating money to this church until they purge all of the child rapists and reform their teachings on confessions so child rapists are no longer protected.
I like the similar sentiment from a while back:
The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, ‘When will they come and take what belongs to them?’
- Jesus (but in a text buried in a jar for centuries after becoming punishable by death for just possessing it)
Religion can fuel some truly abhorrent things, but at the same time I know people who have used religion and faith to pull themselves out of a really bad spot in life.
There can be a middle ground between admonishing all religious practices and dogmatic bible thumpers, and that starts with religion being a understood as a personal choice and how people interpret the religion being a reflection on their self and not the every religious person ever.
Modern day religion. In the past your faith was quite important and dictated morals. It’s unfortunate it’s been so twisted over the years. And by past I’m not just saying the 50s, but even back in the 1500s.
Pope Francis is completely right.
I’d say he’s left
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The Catholic Church literally supported Nazis back in the day.
Pope Francis’ condemnation indicates that at least they learned from that mistake.
Where “learning” from that mistake means:
“Hey, check what most people have been thinking about X for the past 50 years… OK, we’ll support that”
Pope Francis was 9 years old when WW2 ended, so get off your high horse.
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To be fair that’s because Hitler lied about being the most catholic ever and by the time they realized who he really was Italy was in too deep.
Dude was actually going to ban Catholicism after awhile, had already made a banned religions list that was slowly working its way up.
Unsurprisingly Judaism was the first on this list, more surprisingly Ievoha’s Witness was the second.
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first Jesus, now the pope is woke? At what point do I start considering that maybe I’m actually the asshole here?
AITA for allowing a person with mental illness claiming to be god be put to death?
I’ve (30M) been reflecting on a past decision I made and I could really use some outside perspective. There was this significant event involving a certain crucifixion, and I had a role to play in it. At the time, I was faced with a lot of conflicting pressures and I ended up not doing much to prevent it.
Looking back, I’m starting to wonder if I made the wrong call. I know hindsight is 20/20, but I can’t shake the feeling that I should’ve done more to change the outcome.
What do you think? Was I in the wrong for not taking a stronger stand against what happened, considering the circumstances? Your honest opinions would be greatly appreciated! 🤷♂️🙏
Pretty sure the head of a church of pedophiles and their enablers are about as far from Woke as you can get.
I think most of them just don’t want to do that.
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There is going to be , or should be , a full on schism in the US church. The parishioners I practice with are more for the Republican Party than for the pope. They basically are waiting for him to die and ignoring doctrine that does not match ‘how it used to be’ Ya know with all of the sexual abuse and bigotry.
How many schisms would that make now? There was the Protestant schism, the Anglican one, Eastern Orthodox one (I think?), and uhh…I’m sure there may be more but at any rate, I guess they certainly are due for another given it’s been awhile.
No Council of Nicaea fans?
Constantine: Ok guys, nobody leaves the room until we sort out this Holy Trinity thing you’re all killing each other over.
I still have no clue what’s up with the holy trinity tbh 🤨
I chalk it up to, “well, glad i’m not christian” and leave it at that as much as I can.
Well neither did Constantine. But people were killing each other over it, so… Council of Nicaea. From what I understand he didn’t really say anything in the Council, just sat there and let all the priests argue it out.
I left catholocism shortly after getting my CS degree, but I think it works roughly like this:
class Trinity { private: God g; public: God& father = g; God& son = g; God& holy_spirit = g; };Edit: stupid Lemmy can’t render ampersands correctly: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/3774
Basically the holy trinity is the idea that Jesus,God and the Holy Spirit are all aspects of the same being. They are not independent of each other.
In Lovecraftian terms the full extent of God is an eldritch being is so incomprehensible that it would break mortals if he appears directly to them. Jesus and the Holy spirit are two ways that god can interact with mortals without them, or the universe, breaking. They are not lesser separate gods .
Think of it how like the US gov is made up of the executive, judicial, and legislative branches but they’re all part of the government.
you can just smell the divinity
We’re not all that different. We just replaced religion with ideology, but it’s not all that different. Still killing each other over stupid shit and pretending it’s the righteous thing to do.
The Anglican schism is generally considered to be part of the protestant schism.
Ngl I wasn’t sure, it just pops out to me as its own thing, so thanks on the clarification!
That schism happened with Vatican II. After that point, it seems like Popes have regularly been political instead of doing what they knew was right, because they seem to think slight improvement by the congregation is better than alienating the conservative membership. I think the growth Sedevacantism terrifies them more than anything. The group is clearly heretical by every Catholic doctrine, but so popular you will not see any formal declaration that they are in a state of excommunication.
The thing is, we non-Catholics should be rooting the religion on to shed that craziness. Whether you like religion or not, Catholicism is not going anywhere and a progressive Catholic Church is better than a Regressive Catholic Church.
The pope ain’t perfect. But goddamn do I love him stripping corrupt officials of their position, being much more chill towards my queer brothers and sisters worldwide, and telling the US arm to remove the giant sticks from their ass over abortion and divorce.
I hope he lives till 130 and keeps being a stabilizing force for good. It’s a rarity to see religious officials who are not only reasonable, but actively trying to make the world a slightly better place.
You’re just buying into and regurgitating his PR. The Pope talks and acts in opposition to his bullshit platitudes. It’s business as usual against the lgbt community in every Catholic Church across most of the world, including the Vatican. He himself was a known homophobe long before he was pope. He continues to ignore and refuses to meet with the victims of priest sexual abuse. He is a bullshiter and I can’t believe anyone on the left buys into any of it
Have you ever been to a Catholic Church?
Yes, the vast majority stick to their own politics and beliefs, regardless of what the Pope says. Go to South America and visit a church, see how lgbt acceptance works out down there.
Thankfully I have no reason to ever go near a Catholic Church again.
Personally I dont frequent child brothels
I don’t think a octogenarian virgin who believes in imaginary friends is the authority I’d nominate to lecture me on abortion and divorce.
He said allowing people to transition was as dangerous as nuclear weapons.
Yeah, wow, such love and support.
except he did this as a reaction to Catholics leaving in a manner that is basically HEMORRHAGING numbers.
This is adapt or die reaction, not adapt because it’s the right thing to do. Let them die.
You’re wrong. Pope Francis is the most liberal pope who’s ever existed and has pushed for human rights and decriminalization of the LGBTQ community.
Have you been listening???
In Slovakia, gay adoption AND marriage was on a referendum, and weirdly enough, Francis threw his support because against it. To “preserve the family”
- “Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings. Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.”
So “kill a few million people with nukes” is the same as “gender theory”
- “The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life.”
God loves you but you ain’t equal. Homosexuality is a sin, but not a crime. You are welcome in the Church, but you are also immoral and going to hell.
Sheesh, I was worrying a bit there. At least I’m not violating the laws of man.
The Church’s position in general is that everyone is immoral and going to hell without the Church’s help. (See original sin, the sacrament of confession, etc)
He isn’t saying “gay is now ok.” The pope is saying that the sin of homosexuality shouldn’t be treated any different than the sin of lying, greed, stealing, envy, cheating, murder, child molestation, etc.
I think the quote from him below expresses his viewpoint with more nuance than I could:
“The door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the church. How will each person live it? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people.”
“What I don’t like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called ‘sin of the flesh’ with a magnifying glass. If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn’t matter, and instead relevant were the sins below the waist.”
“We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable. To accompany people spiritually and pastorally takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity.”
“Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church. Never forget that.”
Great. Just let me know when all those homosexuals the Church is so accepting of are allowed to receive any sacraments.
Go where youre celebrated, not where youre tolerated. I care as much about the popes view on sexuality as i care for a 5 year olds opinion on foreign policy.
You’re telling me the Pope is Catholic? That’s fuckin insane man. How weird!
Not familiar with the situation, but looking it up, I see same sex marriage banned by the constitution, and an attempt at a referendum failed with low turnout. That doesn’t track with a religious figure riling up the conservatives.
I only have English speaking sources to go on, but the only Christian organizational involvement is see is against gender change surgery. Im not going to argue that, but it is also a lot narrower than your claim
“I greet the pilgrims from Slovakia and, through them, I wish to express my appreciation to the entire Slovak Church, encouraging everyone to continue their efforts in defense of the family, the vital cell of society,”
Seems pretty straightforward…
Oh interesting, had not heard that. I don’t stay updated with the popes latest tbh.
Thanks!
Don’t buy it. He’s still a snake in a robe.
It’s not just that he’s the most progressive pope ever, but supposedly he was elected for exactly that reason. There’s a lot of inertia to change, like anywhere else, but enough of the leadership recognized where they wanted to go, enough to elect him
I’ve been pissed at him since the Charlie Hebdo situation, and even if I might agree with some of the things he says, fuck him.
I never heard of that so had to look it up. A bunch of Muslim fundamentalists in France got angry and killed people at a satirical magazine. Not sure how that’s the Pope’s fault.
He said that religions shouldn’t be mocked.
And as one of the biggest persons in one religion, it is important to say that about other religions. They are kind of the same, so it would be like mocking himself.
While I don’t agree with the statement that ideas shouldn’t be mocked, I get it.
Putting aside the fact that it’s basically victim blaming, he went further:
“If [a close friend] says a swear word against my mother, he’s going to get a punch in the nose”
What happened to “turning the other cheek”? Does that not count when someone makes the horrible crime that is satire on religion? Hypocrisy at its finest, no better way to describe it.
The religious should be mocked relentlessly wherever they go. Bringing up religion in polite company should be treated the same as exposing your genitalia. Social shame is the best tool to put this bronze age scourge to rest.
How high were you when you were this lol
New Pope diss track just dropped.
Hey babe, wake up
This is the fruits of the GOP strategy that’s been going on for decades to strengthen their support through Christian believers. The Pope is just recognizing the impact of that from the religious side, whereas Barry Goldwater warned of it’s impact from the political side.
Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.
It certainly is a terrible damn problem, and we’re knee deep in the shit right now.
Separation of Church and State: Good for the Church, Good for the State.
Pot meet kettle
Has he met the Catholic Church?
Inquisitions? Witch burning? Who does he think did extremism biggest and best?
Sure, now they mostly just coverup for paedophiles and rampant baby murder at orphanages, but they were the OG extremists, let’s not kid ourselves.
Pretty sure it was a Roman Catholic priest that burned all the Mayan texts. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest destroyer and oppressor that ever existed.
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And that conman was (at the very least) a friend of a very famous child sex abuser.
Being called “backwards” by the head of the catholic church is quite something
