Earnest answers on the definition of a Tankie (as per the thread topic), bringing up their viewpoints or talking about the authoritarianism they promote were removed and users banned.

Source: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/17428405

Modlog: https://photon.lemmy.world/modlog?user=10894797

Source: https://discuss.tchncs.de/comment/21457702

Modlog: https://photon.lemmy.world/modlog?user=66486

Source https://lemmings.world/comment/18733315

Modlog https://photon.lemmy.world/modlog?user=16964962

Join the lemmy.ml boycott today and help foster a better Lemmy-verse! No more posts, comments (except to counter their propaganda ofc!) or upvotes on any comms on the Lemmy.ml instance! To make this easy you can do an instance block at Settings > Block Tab > Scroll to bottom > Input “lemmy.ml” and apply

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@the_mighty_kracken@lemmy.world in response to your comment, it was not a mod, it was head lemmy.ml instance admin themselves that removed all those comments. This is what tankies do, be sure to check the megathread for even more documentation.

  • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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    6 days ago

    While I agree with you and I strongly dislike non sequitur usage of terms like socialist and communist (was very annoying hearing that when I lived in the US), I can’t help but wonder what does it mean to be a communist?

    In a sense I am strong supporter of communism (even though I would never refer to myself as such), but I am honestly incapable articulating how to get there.

    • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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      5 days ago

      I’ll preface this explanation by acknowledging my biases: I consider myself something between a democratic socialist and an anarchist.

      Communism is worker ownership of the means of production. That means that rather than individuals owning companies and having total authority over them, the workers would own their companies collectively. That’s the entire idea, but it’s vague and there are many ways it can be interpreted and many different ways people have proposed to implement it, which is why you’ll see so many different versions of communism and a lot of arguing and infighting between communists/socialists.

      The version of communism that people who grew up in the US are familiar with is a twisted and distorted view of a very authoritarian and centralized version of communism established by the Bolsheviks after the Russian revolution. It’s important for people to understand that not only is this not the only version of communism, it’s an extremely controversial one that fractured the movement and created many of the different factions that exist in leftist spaces today.

      Now a note and some definitions:

      The common understanding today is that communism and socialism are just more and less extreme versions of the same thing, but the terms were coined for a different reason. Communism was originally stated to be the ideal end-goal to be strived towards, a classless, stateless society in which resources are distributed by need and labor is distributed according to ability, while socialism was stated to be a transitional state between capitalism and communism.

      AES - Actually existing (or once existed) socialist states such as the USSR or China. It is heavily debated which states actually qualify as AES.

      Private property - Best understood as “absentee ownership,” or claiming ownership of tools and resources that you hire others to use/develop/maintain in order to make a profit. Things like factories and office buildings that are owned by an individual rather than collectively by the workers count as private property, things like your house or your toothbrush do not.

      Pluralism - The existence of competing parties with opposing views being represented in the same government.

      Liberal democracy - A form of representative democracy that includes separation of powers, different branches of government acting as checks and balances to one another, and an emphasis on individual liberties (including private property, which anti-capitalists argue is not a right and is actually corrosive to the liberty of working people).

      Hierarchy - An organized system in which people are subordinated to one another, meaning certain people - chosen or otherwise - can exercise authority over others.

      This is already getting too long, so I’ll try to simplify it down and generalize it into just 3 different schools of thought, but note that they all share the belief that private property should be abolished, that workers are entitled to what they produce, and should collectively organize the distribution of those resources according to need, usually by creating social services and infrastructure. What they disagree on is how this is accomplished.

      First are the Marxist-Leninists, who typically critically support AES states such as the USSR, China, Cuba, and sometimes even North Korea in the extreme cases. They argue that a centralized authority such as the state is necessary to defend socialism against capitalists so that communism can eventually be achieved, and that since the state is a public institution then if the state owns all industry it counts as collective ownership. They also oppose pluralism and liberal democracy, favoring a one-party government with a structured internal hierarchy in which only party members vote and the existing members approve new membership. They are criticized by the other factions for being authoritarian, are often called tankies, and tend to prefer revolution through armed struggle over reform.

      Second are the Democratic Socialists, who are less likely to support AES states on the grounds that they are too authoritarian and do not adequately represent the workers enough to be considered true communism, Though they tend to have more nuanced opinions on some of the AES states. They argue for more egalitarian, decentralized, and democratic means of organizing production and distribution of resources, and support political pluralism. In practice this is typically envisioned as similar to a liberal democracy but where the state owns all industry (no private property), can be either representative or directly democratic, and prefer a flatter hierarchy with greater accountability. They are criticized by MLs as being naive or capitalist collaborators, called liberals as an insult (and they often do take it as one), and are criticized by anarchists also as being naive or statists. They tend to prefer reform through union organizing and collective bargaining over revolution.

      Finally there are the Anarchists, who oppose hierarchy entirely. They make a distinction between a state and a government, arguing that states are inherently hierarchical and authoritarian, and that government can be done without the subordination of people to any other. Some argue that even direct democracy creates a “tyranny of the majority,” preferring some form of consensus-based decision making. Anarchists typically believe governments should look like loose, voluntary confederations of worker collectives - with no internal or external hierarchies - organizing production and distribution of resources collectively through direct democratic or consensus-based governance. They favor a library or gift economy in which people’s needs are provided for by collectively organized social services and infrastructure. They are criticized as being too idealistic. They tend to prefer revolution through rank-and-file union organizing, direct action, and mutual aid over reform.

      • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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        6 days ago

        Like you, I would would probably also fall somewhere in the “between a democratic socialist and an anarchist” range.

        Thanks for the right-up. I am aware of these points. I am from Eastern Europe, so I have an interest in the 20th century history of Europe and the Cold War between russia and the US (and the broader history of decolonization).

        I guess I was referring to the more philosophical question around what it means to look for a classless, stateless society in the present day.

        What needs to be done? What is the next step?

        I almost feel like we need a new global revolutionary movement (truly global and without the excesses of 20th century revolutionary movements), but I am not sure how (if?) we’ll get there.

        One thing I do know is that communism (in the common usage of the term, not the ideas behind communism) has been discredited by the USSR, Mao and others.

        • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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          5 days ago

          While I agree that a global revolutionary movement is needed, I think it’s important to focus on what’s actionable for you. Think global but act local. Organizing with people in your community helps to build a foundation on which a global revolutionary movement could one day launch from, and in the meantime it will improve your life and your community. Anything helps, so to decide on a direction you should consider what your community needs and what you are capable of. You could run for office, form a union, engage in direct action, or participate in mutual aid. It all counts for something.

          • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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            5 days ago

            Agreed. One should never underestimate the impact of small actions. I would argue I do contribute in my own way.

            I was thinking about more about what a future global movement would look like.

    • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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      6 days ago

      To be a communist is to believe in a system that will only ever work if humans are subtracted from it.

      In other words, hopeless ideal.

      • Eldritch@piefed.world
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        6 days ago

        Not at all. Some humans, absolutely yes. But not even remotely all. Plenty of us just want to be able to have a decent standard of living and just live our lives. Honestly if we as a general society simply discouraged and punished sociopathy it would go a long way to fixing things even. As opposed to worshiping it as we do today.

        • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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          5 days ago

          Any and every individual human being can be corrupted by power. You cannot remove enough human beings because everyone will be corrupted when faced with the same power over others.

          Thinking otherwise is foolish, and the reason we are where we are today.

          • Eldritch@piefed.world
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            5 days ago

            No they won’t. You definitely. That’s easy enough to tell because of your projection. Though I will commend you for at least having a round about Freudian sense of self-awareness.

            No one claimed that power doesn’t corrupt. You’re just building a straw man. By the way, how’s that going for you? Of course, power tends to corrupt. That is well understood and there are concrete ways to address that. Whole philosophies. Were there a critical mass of the public willing to. keeping power small, local, granular and answerable for one.

            The problem lies with the fact that, anyone who would seek power. Generally should never have power. Because they then take that power abuse it and use it. To secure the position so they can make sure that only other people like themselves who shouldn’t have it are the ones able to get it.

            Serious question. If power wasn’t something to be won or claimed. If it was something gifted to you by your friends and neighbors. And limited to just your friends and neighbors only for a very limited time span. You know friends and neighbors, right? The people who know where you sleep and could strangle you in it, if you cross them. Do you honestly think they would all still rush to screw each other over still.

            Basic accountability is like magic.

            • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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              5 days ago

              So you’re saying that this system of power can only be held up by those that don’t seek power? And you don’t see that as hopeless? All while trying to suggest that you simply wouldn’t become corrupt.

              Yes I’m sure this is a worthwhile conversation, and definitely a good use of my time.

              • Eldritch@piefed.world
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                5 days ago

                People thought pushing back against the divine right of kings was hopeless. Remind me what happened with that. You might be wasting your time. But not with this conversation. You can waste your time being hopeless all you want. That’s what they want. What they don’t want is us to realize that we far outnumber them. That this learned helplessness is useless. It’s absolutely an uphill battle, but it’s not remotely hopeless.

                Nobody but the wealthy likes the current people in charge of government. Not Republican voters, not Democrat voters, not Third Party voters. All we have to do is decide that we’re done. And people are closer to that now than they have been for 100 years.

                • PugJesus@piefed.social
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                  5 days ago

                  All we have to do is decide that we’re done. And people are closer to that now than they have been for 100 years.

                  I gotta disagree with this last part, at least for the US.

                  • Eldritch@piefed.world
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                    4 days ago

                    Neither of us can know for sure. And I’m just drawing from my background living in the Midwest, Misery/Kansas area. And believe me. I’m not trying to paint Trump or Republican voters in a good light.They’re dumb as fuck, and twice as spiteful. But they’re struggling to support him right now.

                    Deploying the Gestapo at night to invade Americans’ homes and assault them in their sleep isn’t helping them. Blowing up South American fishermen in the middle of the ocean, isn’t helping them. Paying billions of dollars to a failed libertarian South American state isn’t helping them. Trump realistically has reneged on every promise he’s made to these people. Just done petty vindictive things and been a general embarrassment. The cultish true believers aren’t even close to the majority of this negative brain trust.

                    Outside of STL and KC Democrats don’t exist. And a lot of these people are really getting tired of fighting against things. They’d much rather have something to fight for. If someone with the vision and speaking chops of Mamdani, though a bit more palatable to their xenophobia were to offer it. I think they’d surprise people.

                    As was famously said

                • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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                  5 days ago

                  Yes, the people you’re saying do not seek power should seize power. You’re also willfully ignoring how contradictory and naive what you’re saying is.

                  In seizing power those who may not have sought it before become those who seek it in the future. It all comes down to opportunity, and for you to sit here and suggest to me that you wouldn’t fall to corruption makes me want to slap you in the mouth. What a pompous statement.

                  You’ve learned nothing.

      • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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        6 days ago

        On one hand I agree with you, we are very, very far away from from implementing it. To the point where “hopeless ideal” is a fair description of communism.

        But on the other, to me it seems clear that all of known history is in a way a path towards the ideals of communism. Marx clearly was on to something, it is not by chance that his ideas had an enormous impact on human history. A completely hopeless, “alien” ideal does not take the world by storm.

        The 20th century attempts at implementing communism were a disastrous failure, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be further attempts (perhaps ones that build upon new knowledge and the mistakes of the past). This is even relevant considering the current rise of an oligarchical, corrupt techno-feudalist global regime.

        • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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          5 days ago

          Really? Because everything you’ve just said can be applied to Fascism, albeit by entirely different paths traveled.

          Has Fascism not taken the world by storm? Is Fascism not entirely hopeless? I can argue just as easily that Fascism simply hasn’t ever been implemented correctly, despite us having seen its disastrous results numerous times.

          Edit: I wouldn’t, mind you, but I can. I’m opposed to both Fascism and Communism.

          • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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            3 days ago

            That’s a very fair point.

            That being said, I don’t think Marx would have approved of the attempts at implementing communism in the 20th century.

            Plus, I would argue it’s fair to say Marx’s heart was in the right place, the same cannot be said of the foundational elements of fascism.

            I am also opposed to communism as it was implemented, but I do think the goal for a stateless, classless society is worth considering (at least on philosophical level).