The Senate Democratic leader and his Gang of Eight keep trying to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. On Thursday, they told their caucus colleagues they had ten votes to reopen the government—in exchange for no real Republican concessions.
How the Senate Democratic leader and his Gang of Eight keep trying to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.
His proposal pushes the healthcare debate into the height of midterm season, all while demonstrating an eagerness to reopen the government. He’s eliminating republican talking points regarding the shutdown while forcing the debate on the campaign trail. This is a smart move.
Bullshit. It’s caving and saying that they can let them expire in a year. The subsidy needs to be ironclad - and the alternative is that we repeal every law related for-profit health care as anything legal.
And in that year, it will be used as a talking point to motivate people to vote. And then (hopefully), enough of congress will agree to a budget that includes the subsidies, among other things
However, it would seem that enough dems caved to the republican budget that it doesn’t matter. So basically everything I’ve said in this thread regarding the hopeful strategy that was put forth is moot. I’m back to being disappointed.
Row v Wade was only able to be overturned because Democrats wanted to be able to run on the platform of defending it, rather than just codifying it into law
The belief in the courts and with politicians was that it was settled law and therefore not up for debate. The dems, at least as far as I know, had nothing to do with the case being overturned. It wasn’t codified into law for two main reasons - there wouldn’t have been enough votes and/or a president wouldn’t veto it, and it wasn’t seen as necessary given the fact that it was settled law.
Do you have sources for any of this? Because it sounds a little too ridiculous to be truthful
There will be no debate. It will be extended until after the election. Democrats will try to make it a campaign issue, but since there will be no shutdown forcing attention, Republicans will just ignore it. Like they did up until the shutdown happened. People may be vaguely worried, but it won’t be a thing that’s happening now so they’ll just assume something will be done, and the extension now will condition them to believe that.
If you think fighting about politics now is not important to the midterms, then demonstrating willingness to open the government and eliminating Republican taking points is also unimportant. However solidifying that Republicans are powerful and Democrats will always roll over is important. Not just for elections, but for standing up against fascism now.
Chuck Schumer is not and has not ever been an electoral genius.
The point is that this is fighting now, and setting up for the midterms
If the main issue with the shutdown are healthcare subsidies, this will end the shutdown and provide those subsidies for the next year. If midterms go well for the dems, it’s a win for the long term. If the midterms don’t go well for the dems, we’re in the exact same position in one year as we are today, which sucks.
I think it’s become very clear how weak the system is. But people shouldn’t have to suffer. Keeping things shut down is using government workers and those who rely on SNAP as pawns.
Let them be pawns then. Democrat votes now are about accepting short-term agony for long-term benefits and hoping Republicans don’t mess things up in the long term. Whatever needs to happen to make sure that the Republicans don’t get what they want is the mandatory action.
Yeah, worked out really well when he caved this spring so we could force the debate during the current elections so he can cave again to push it off to next year’s elections.
In fact, I’d argue that perpetually kicking a hugely popular Democratic issue to the next election cycle says he specifically doesn’t want it solved, so that it can keep the same campaign literature.
No, it isn’t. Republican talking points don’t matter, they’ll just come up with new talking points, because they’re all bullshit anyway. They’ve brazenly violated the law and are rounding people up off the streets, now is the time to play hardball and refuse to cooperate. The republicans are currently fighting to avoid giving people SNAP benefits, let them, and let’s see how that strategy plays out for them at the ballot box.
In terms of optics, what’s important is to demonstrate that what the Republicans are doing isn’t normal and to make sure there’s actual daylight between their positions and those of the Democrats. Caving to their demands will only normalize what they’re doing and cause people to give up on going out to vote altogether.
I swear, it doesn’t seem to matter to centrists how many times their electoral strategies are proven wrong in practice, because this whole, “move to the right to attract swing voters” is just accepted dogmatically. If that nonsense worked, Trump would never have gotten elected either time.
I agree with everything you said, but disagree on the path forward.
I love that communities are coming together to help people who rely on SNAP, but it’s not sustainable. Nor is having government workers, furloughed or working, go unpaid. It is disgusting they, and others, are being used as pawns
Back in the day, when children were going hungry, the Black Panthers set up their free breakfast program to address the problem through direct action and to win support. Part of the reason the government set up a school meal program was to stop people from going to the Panthers. What the Republicans are doing when they gut these programs is they’re forgetting themselves and overplaying their hands. They believe that they are invincible, and part of the reason they believe that is that their only opposition have been so spineless, so willing to bend over backwards to shield them from the consequences of their own actions.
Of course, capitulation and appeasement don’t work on fascists. If you’re unwilling to accept the possibility of people going hungry (something that is entirely the Republicans’ fault), then you can understand how unwilling Chamberlain was to accept the possibility of a second world war. But if you can understand that psychology, then you should understand that it’s wrong.
As Warren Buffet put it, “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” Nobody should be rolling over and surrendering just because the enemy is targeting innocent people we can’t always protect, if anything, that’s all the more reason to fight. They’re already putting people in camps, what, are you waiting for them to start the furnaces? How is anyone supposed to take the Democrats seriously when they call Republicans fascists if they’re constantly trying to capitulate and appease them?
In what way am I entitled? In what way am I gloating?
I understand the stakes, and I hate what the country has become. It is disgusting that republicans are using people who rely on SNAP and healthcare subsidies as pawns to advance this stupid agenda that’s making life worse for the majority of the country.
Instead of hurling insults at someone analyzing the situation, maybe you could educate yourself on political game theory. Perhaps then you’ll understand where I’m coming from in referring to politics as a game.
maybe you could educate yourself on political game theory
says the person who thinks it’s a good thing the democrats just traded promises of absolutely nothing for everything the republicans wanted. you’re celebrating that the democrats just condemned ~50,000 people to death every year because they won’t be able to afford health insurance as a genius political move in some grand game you’ve made up in your head. you’re pretty fucking disgusting, dude.
Did you miss the part where all of this was said before they caved, and the proposal was to extend healthcare subsidies for a year as a compromise to reopen the government? Which would give dems what they asked for while forcing the debate during midterms?
The plan doesn’t work all the time - there’s always risk
That being said, punting on the prosecutions is the most disappointing and disgusting thing that led trump to power. They relied on the idea that voters wouldn’t elect him simply based on j6 and the indictments, but underestimated the stupidity of voters and the way trump manipulates his base. Having bootlickers in places of power to slow it all down certainly did not help.
Regardless, a bunch of dems caved to the budget without the extension of subsidies, so none of it matters anyway
His proposal pushes the healthcare debate into the height of midterm season, all while demonstrating an eagerness to reopen the government. He’s eliminating republican talking points regarding the shutdown while forcing the debate on the campaign trail. This is a smart move.
All caving does is make Dems look weak against Trump. Again. No one gives a shit if it’s “good politics” or “strategy”.
There’s no reason to cave. GOP controls the govt. Make them nuke the filibuster if they want the govt open.
My point is, at least in part, that the proposal to extend healthcare subsidies for a year is not caving.
Bullshit. It’s caving and saying that they can let them expire in a year. The subsidy needs to be ironclad - and the alternative is that we repeal every law related for-profit health care as anything legal.
And in that year, it will be used as a talking point to motivate people to vote. And then (hopefully), enough of congress will agree to a budget that includes the subsidies, among other things
Oh yeah, like Roe v Wade! That went great!
Since Roe v Wade was overturned, nearly every vote to grant abortion access passed. It’s an issue that motivates voters to act.
However, it would seem that enough dems caved to the republican budget that it doesn’t matter. So basically everything I’ve said in this thread regarding the hopeful strategy that was put forth is moot. I’m back to being disappointed.
Row v Wade was only able to be overturned because Democrats wanted to be able to run on the platform of defending it, rather than just codifying it into law
The belief in the courts and with politicians was that it was settled law and therefore not up for debate. The dems, at least as far as I know, had nothing to do with the case being overturned. It wasn’t codified into law for two main reasons - there wouldn’t have been enough votes and/or a president wouldn’t veto it, and it wasn’t seen as necessary given the fact that it was settled law.
Do you have sources for any of this? Because it sounds a little too ridiculous to be truthful
There will be no debate. It will be extended until after the election. Democrats will try to make it a campaign issue, but since there will be no shutdown forcing attention, Republicans will just ignore it. Like they did up until the shutdown happened. People may be vaguely worried, but it won’t be a thing that’s happening now so they’ll just assume something will be done, and the extension now will condition them to believe that.
If you think fighting about politics now is not important to the midterms, then demonstrating willingness to open the government and eliminating Republican taking points is also unimportant. However solidifying that Republicans are powerful and Democrats will always roll over is important. Not just for elections, but for standing up against fascism now.
Chuck Schumer is not and has not ever been an electoral genius.
The point is that this is fighting now, and setting up for the midterms
If the main issue with the shutdown are healthcare subsidies, this will end the shutdown and provide those subsidies for the next year. If midterms go well for the dems, it’s a win for the long term. If the midterms don’t go well for the dems, we’re in the exact same position in one year as we are today, which sucks.
Then don’t pass a CR and keep things shut down. Reveal how weak our system is.
I think it’s become very clear how weak the system is. But people shouldn’t have to suffer. Keeping things shut down is using government workers and those who rely on SNAP as pawns.
Let them be pawns then. Democrat votes now are about accepting short-term agony for long-term benefits and hoping Republicans don’t mess things up in the long term. Whatever needs to happen to make sure that the Republicans don’t get what they want is the mandatory action.
Yeah, worked out really well when he caved this spring so we could force the debate during the current elections so he can cave again to push it off to next year’s elections.
Totally not kicking the can down the road.
In fact, I’d argue that perpetually kicking a hugely popular Democratic issue to the next election cycle says he specifically doesn’t want it solved, so that it can keep the same campaign literature.
Schumer can’t let the party actually eat the carrot, then they might stop following him.
he needs continued support for israel thats his real reason, his donors are getting nervous,.
No, it isn’t. Republican talking points don’t matter, they’ll just come up with new talking points, because they’re all bullshit anyway. They’ve brazenly violated the law and are rounding people up off the streets, now is the time to play hardball and refuse to cooperate. The republicans are currently fighting to avoid giving people SNAP benefits, let them, and let’s see how that strategy plays out for them at the ballot box.
In terms of optics, what’s important is to demonstrate that what the Republicans are doing isn’t normal and to make sure there’s actual daylight between their positions and those of the Democrats. Caving to their demands will only normalize what they’re doing and cause people to give up on going out to vote altogether.
I swear, it doesn’t seem to matter to centrists how many times their electoral strategies are proven wrong in practice, because this whole, “move to the right to attract swing voters” is just accepted dogmatically. If that nonsense worked, Trump would never have gotten elected either time.
I agree with everything you said, but disagree on the path forward.
I love that communities are coming together to help people who rely on SNAP, but it’s not sustainable. Nor is having government workers, furloughed or working, go unpaid. It is disgusting they, and others, are being used as pawns
Back in the day, when children were going hungry, the Black Panthers set up their free breakfast program to address the problem through direct action and to win support. Part of the reason the government set up a school meal program was to stop people from going to the Panthers. What the Republicans are doing when they gut these programs is they’re forgetting themselves and overplaying their hands. They believe that they are invincible, and part of the reason they believe that is that their only opposition have been so spineless, so willing to bend over backwards to shield them from the consequences of their own actions.
Of course, capitulation and appeasement don’t work on fascists. If you’re unwilling to accept the possibility of people going hungry (something that is entirely the Republicans’ fault), then you can understand how unwilling Chamberlain was to accept the possibility of a second world war. But if you can understand that psychology, then you should understand that it’s wrong.
As Warren Buffet put it, “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” Nobody should be rolling over and surrendering just because the enemy is targeting innocent people we can’t always protect, if anything, that’s all the more reason to fight. They’re already putting people in camps, what, are you waiting for them to start the furnaces? How is anyone supposed to take the Democrats seriously when they call Republicans fascists if they’re constantly trying to capitulate and appease them?
Yes, it’s disgusting that the GOP is using them as pawns.
Not sure if optimism or naïveté.
It’s neither - I’m just pointing out how the game is played
it isnt a game, when its one side that holds all the cards, pushing an unfavorable legislation isnt going to help dems get re-elected in the house.
This ain’t a fucking game, you entitled twatwaffle. People are dying while you gloat over old white men playing politics.
In what way am I entitled? In what way am I gloating?
I understand the stakes, and I hate what the country has become. It is disgusting that republicans are using people who rely on SNAP and healthcare subsidies as pawns to advance this stupid agenda that’s making life worse for the majority of the country.
Instead of hurling insults at someone analyzing the situation, maybe you could educate yourself on political game theory. Perhaps then you’ll understand where I’m coming from in referring to politics as a game.
says the person who thinks it’s a good thing the democrats just traded promises of absolutely nothing for everything the republicans wanted. you’re celebrating that the democrats just condemned ~50,000 people to death every year because they won’t be able to afford health insurance as a genius political move in some grand game you’ve made up in your head. you’re pretty fucking disgusting, dude.
Did you miss the part where all of this was said before they caved, and the proposal was to extend healthcare subsidies for a year as a compromise to reopen the government? Which would give dems what they asked for while forcing the debate during midterms?
Maybe this will help you understand
Sorry, did me pointing out how you’re getting mad at someone on the same side as you for analyzing the situation upset you?
Maybe take your own advice, twatwaffle
There is no more game. Either we destroy every part of Project 2025, and we imprison all the people involved. And that means 90% of the MAGApublicans.
They punted Trumps prosecutions for the same reason. It’s a stupid plan.
The plan doesn’t work all the time - there’s always risk
That being said, punting on the prosecutions is the most disappointing and disgusting thing that led trump to power. They relied on the idea that voters wouldn’t elect him simply based on j6 and the indictments, but underestimated the stupidity of voters and the way trump manipulates his base. Having bootlickers in places of power to slow it all down certainly did not help.
Regardless, a bunch of dems caved to the budget without the extension of subsidies, so none of it matters anyway