While RFA’s funding is American, the evidence they present (videos of floods, leaked documents, interviews with locals) is often corroborated by non-Western sources like Al Jazeera, The Straits Times, or CNA (Singapore). If the “bad news” is happening, the source’s funding doesn’t make the flooded house or the frozen bank account any less real.
If you know people from China, then you’d know they are very critic of the local level, they are ok with criticising the local landlord, a corrupt mayor, or a lazy bureaucrat. But the “criticism” stops the moment it touches the systemic level (e.g., “Maybe we need a different party” or “The top leadership made a mistake”).
If the government is truly doing a “good job at addressing real problems,” then why is censorship increasing? If 90% of people are happy, the government shouldn’t need to delete videos of a flood or a bank run. The fact that they do delete them suggests the government itself is worried that the 10% of “bad news” could quickly erode that 90% support.
RFA is a propaganda outlet. The fact that sometimes its claims are corroborated does not mean that they aren’t dedicated to anti-communism and supporting western imperialism, regardless of truth.
People from China do tend to criticize the central government, just not as much, because they have fewer problems with it. As for censorship, they do it to censor the speech of capitalists and those that undermine the system, they aren’t fully hiding any and all bad news, just bad news that’s spun in a way that tries to undermine government legitimacy.
I suggest you actually look into how these approval numbers come to be and why.
Is the system so fragile that it can be undermined just by speech?
Marx had a strong belief that communism was inevitable. I’d argue censoring capitalist speech shouldn’t be necessary.
Do you think it would be wise for capitalists systems to openly censor communist speech? I disagree.
In fact I feel directly going after “anti-system” propaganda might actually be counterproductive, for more than one reason:
It makes the population more vulnerable to that rhetoric as soon as they leave the protective environment, since they will now be exposed to propaganda they were being shielded from.
Censorship and transparency are not exactly compatible, and in my mind, transparency is the best defense against corruption… there’s a reason why many right-wing dictatorships have been heavy censors, transparency is the enemy of elitist authoritarianism. The reason why China can act on local officials is because the criticism to local officials in particular is one thing that’s not being censored… but the minute you start organizing a form of collective expression that’s critic with the system, then it’ll get shut down (there’s a University study about this).
It just gives ammunition to the capitalist side, since it helps spread the idea of China being a state very close-minded towards different opinions at a level that is not seen in other nations without explicit censorship, so one could argue that this undermines the image of the Chinese Government just as much (or maybe more, depending on the ideals of the person judging).
Given that the information people receive is explicitly filtered and curated (and one’s opinion is necessarily influenced by the information they have), then it follows (using cold logic) that the filter influences the opinion people have. This is true of any subgroup with any level of propaganda (ie. all nations) but in nations without open censorship the filter is more decentralized, allowing for pockets of conflicting opinions / subgroups to emerge that allows routes to challenge the status Quo.
Allowing the free speech of capitalists is what contributed to undermining socialism in Eastern Europe through outlets like Radio Free Europe. Marx’s belief that communism is economically compelled by existing systems does not mean Marx didn’t also believe that it is necessary for the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie and strip them of their political power, including their speech:
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
…
Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
As for capitalist countries censoring the speech of communists, they already do this. Always have and always will. For all of your theories about how censoring the speech of capitalists and fascists might backfire, this doesn’t actually bear fruit in reality. Combatting misinformation and disinformation that have the explicit purpose of undermining socialism has been very good at protecting truth and social cohesion. VPNs are commonly used by people in China anyways, and this isn’t punished, so Chinese citizens can still access whatever it is you fear they cannot.
Marx didn’t also believe that it is necessary for the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie and strip them of their political power, including their speech:
Marx believed the bourgeoisie must be stripped of class power, but he was a lifelong opponent of state censorship.
“If the immaturity of the human race is the mystical ground for opposing freedom of the press, then certainly censorship is a most reasonable means of hindering the human race from coming of age.”
As for capitalist countries censoring the speech of communists, they already do this. Always have and always will.
You are avoiding the question: do you think it’s wise or not?
Personally, I despise when capitalist states censor communist speech… just as much as I despise it when socialist states censor capitalist speech.
If you think I’m a sympathizer or glosser of the way capitalist states operate, you are wrong. I’m highly critic of them, systemically. And I’d rather continue being able to openly criticize whatever system I find has systemic problems.
For me, transparency is more important than the economic model. I’ll openly embrace a fully transparent communist country, in the same way that I might embrace a fully transparent capitalist one (provided there’s still agreed-upon social control, I don’t want a wild west situation).
The thing is that, as things stand, China would not be as happy to have me criticize it as the West does. And that tilts the balance to one of the sides when in comes to that principle.
Marx talking about censorship in the context of 0 existing socialist states is entirely different from the question of whether or not the capitalist class should be given free reign and control of the press, by which it can freely espouse disinformation and attempt to undermine democratic institutions for the purposes of restoring their class power. You cannot simply take a statement outside of its necessary context, Marx advocating for freedom of the press within capitalism does not at all mean he believes capitalists should be able to undermine socialism once established.
As for whether or not it is “wise” for capitalists to censor communist speech, the answer is yes, for capitalists to protect their class interests. I can despise that choice while recognizing its strategic advantage for capitalists, just like I can approve of socialists restricting bourgeois class power. By equating the oppression of capitalists by the working classes with the oppression of workers by the capitalist classes, you’re reducing your analysis to simple phrasemongering. As long as class struggle is alive, the working classes must make use of what they can to prevent capitalists from regaining control. Allowing the spread of misinformation and disinformation out of some abstract moral virtue is to sabotage the working class.
Marx talking about censorship in the context of 0 existing socialist states
Ok, so you are saying that Marx has never had a context that allowed him to make the statement you just made about him before.
This implies you admit Marx never said what you attributed to him. You can make hypothesis of what he would say, but I can make mine too. I don’t necessarily think he would be ok with censorship in a mature communist state, he’ll see that as a means to keep people from “coming of age”, a form of oppression. Free workers don’t need an elite to to tell them what they need to think.
whether or not the capitalist class should be given free reign and control of the press
But that was not the point. Where did I say that the capitalist class should be given free reign and control of the press?
You talk as if any thought that’s anti-system must automatically make the person who had it part of the capitalist class.
The “capitalist class” is not a state of mind… it’s a real oppressor with economic power… one does not become “capitalist class” just because they have a wrong thought. For me, as a materialist, “thought” is not really relevant when it comes to modelling the economic power structure.
I can despise that choice while recognizing its strategic advantage for capitalists
Then that’s our difference. I despise that strategy because it’s fundamentally flawed, for the reasons I provided before.
equating the oppression of capitalists by the working classes with the oppression of workers by the capitalist classes
I did not say or imply that, this is another strawman.
A worker is not a state of mind, it’s a real person at the bottom of the hierarchy… you don’t suddenly stop being a worker just because you had the wrong thought.
I don’t follow your logic here. Marx was explicit in saying the working classes need to establish state power over capitalists, and control the means of communication and transport. Any elements used by the capitalists to maintain or gain political power should be stripped away from them, including killing them if necessary. When you speak of freedom of speech in “mature communist society,” you’re speaking of a society beyond class struggle, which has never existed. Socialist states have ongoing class struggle.
Secondly, regarding “anti-system” speech vs. Capitalist speech. You quite literally said you despise it when socialist states control the speech of capitalists earlier. In China, our relevant example, speech criticizing the system and the government is allowed and happens all the time. Of course capitalist isn’t a “state of mind,” but private, bourgeois press is the mouthpiece of the capitalist class. This is what is held in higher scrutiny.
I have never once indicated that being in a class is determined by what you believe. What I have done is recognized the class character of the press as it relates to the overall mode of production and the classes governing it. In capitalist society, I would frustrate for freedom of speech for the working classes, but in socialist society I would advocate for controlling the speech of capitalists. In classless, communist society, we will have moved beyond such a struggle and can begin to truly speak of genuine freedom of speech for all.
Capitalist speech in a communist system is “anti-system” speech.
Communist speech in a capitalist system is “anti-system” speech.
I want to defend the right of the working class for spreading anti-system speech without fear of oppression from any elite.
To me, this (along with transparency) is more important than the economic system, because it establishes a basis for the workers to be able to react and mandate change… if a fully transparent system were put in place properly, I believe ultimately the rest of the pieces will slowly fall into place.
While RFA’s funding is American, the evidence they present (videos of floods, leaked documents, interviews with locals) is often corroborated by non-Western sources like Al Jazeera, The Straits Times, or CNA (Singapore). If the “bad news” is happening, the source’s funding doesn’t make the flooded house or the frozen bank account any less real.
If you know people from China, then you’d know they are very critic of the local level, they are ok with criticising the local landlord, a corrupt mayor, or a lazy bureaucrat. But the “criticism” stops the moment it touches the systemic level (e.g., “Maybe we need a different party” or “The top leadership made a mistake”).
If the government is truly doing a “good job at addressing real problems,” then why is censorship increasing? If 90% of people are happy, the government shouldn’t need to delete videos of a flood or a bank run. The fact that they do delete them suggests the government itself is worried that the 10% of “bad news” could quickly erode that 90% support.
RFA is a propaganda outlet. The fact that sometimes its claims are corroborated does not mean that they aren’t dedicated to anti-communism and supporting western imperialism, regardless of truth.
People from China do tend to criticize the central government, just not as much, because they have fewer problems with it. As for censorship, they do it to censor the speech of capitalists and those that undermine the system, they aren’t fully hiding any and all bad news, just bad news that’s spun in a way that tries to undermine government legitimacy.
I suggest you actually look into how these approval numbers come to be and why.
Is the system so fragile that it can be undermined just by speech?
Marx had a strong belief that communism was inevitable. I’d argue censoring capitalist speech shouldn’t be necessary. Do you think it would be wise for capitalists systems to openly censor communist speech? I disagree.
In fact I feel directly going after “anti-system” propaganda might actually be counterproductive, for more than one reason:
It makes the population more vulnerable to that rhetoric as soon as they leave the protective environment, since they will now be exposed to propaganda they were being shielded from.
Censorship and transparency are not exactly compatible, and in my mind, transparency is the best defense against corruption… there’s a reason why many right-wing dictatorships have been heavy censors, transparency is the enemy of elitist authoritarianism. The reason why China can act on local officials is because the criticism to local officials in particular is one thing that’s not being censored… but the minute you start organizing a form of collective expression that’s critic with the system, then it’ll get shut down (there’s a University study about this).
It just gives ammunition to the capitalist side, since it helps spread the idea of China being a state very close-minded towards different opinions at a level that is not seen in other nations without explicit censorship, so one could argue that this undermines the image of the Chinese Government just as much (or maybe more, depending on the ideals of the person judging).
Given that the information people receive is explicitly filtered and curated (and one’s opinion is necessarily influenced by the information they have), then it follows (using cold logic) that the filter influences the opinion people have. This is true of any subgroup with any level of propaganda (ie. all nations) but in nations without open censorship the filter is more decentralized, allowing for pockets of conflicting opinions / subgroups to emerge that allows routes to challenge the status Quo.
Allowing the free speech of capitalists is what contributed to undermining socialism in Eastern Europe through outlets like Radio Free Europe. Marx’s belief that communism is economically compelled by existing systems does not mean Marx didn’t also believe that it is necessary for the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie and strip them of their political power, including their speech:
As for capitalist countries censoring the speech of communists, they already do this. Always have and always will. For all of your theories about how censoring the speech of capitalists and fascists might backfire, this doesn’t actually bear fruit in reality. Combatting misinformation and disinformation that have the explicit purpose of undermining socialism has been very good at protecting truth and social cohesion. VPNs are commonly used by people in China anyways, and this isn’t punished, so Chinese citizens can still access whatever it is you fear they cannot.
Marx believed the bourgeoisie must be stripped of class power, but he was a lifelong opponent of state censorship.
One quote from him (source):
“If the immaturity of the human race is the mystical ground for opposing freedom of the press, then certainly censorship is a most reasonable means of hindering the human race from coming of age.”
You are avoiding the question: do you think it’s wise or not?
Personally, I despise when capitalist states censor communist speech… just as much as I despise it when socialist states censor capitalist speech.
If you think I’m a sympathizer or glosser of the way capitalist states operate, you are wrong. I’m highly critic of them, systemically. And I’d rather continue being able to openly criticize whatever system I find has systemic problems.
For me, transparency is more important than the economic model. I’ll openly embrace a fully transparent communist country, in the same way that I might embrace a fully transparent capitalist one (provided there’s still agreed-upon social control, I don’t want a wild west situation).
The thing is that, as things stand, China would not be as happy to have me criticize it as the West does. And that tilts the balance to one of the sides when in comes to that principle.
Marx talking about censorship in the context of 0 existing socialist states is entirely different from the question of whether or not the capitalist class should be given free reign and control of the press, by which it can freely espouse disinformation and attempt to undermine democratic institutions for the purposes of restoring their class power. You cannot simply take a statement outside of its necessary context, Marx advocating for freedom of the press within capitalism does not at all mean he believes capitalists should be able to undermine socialism once established.
As for whether or not it is “wise” for capitalists to censor communist speech, the answer is yes, for capitalists to protect their class interests. I can despise that choice while recognizing its strategic advantage for capitalists, just like I can approve of socialists restricting bourgeois class power. By equating the oppression of capitalists by the working classes with the oppression of workers by the capitalist classes, you’re reducing your analysis to simple phrasemongering. As long as class struggle is alive, the working classes must make use of what they can to prevent capitalists from regaining control. Allowing the spread of misinformation and disinformation out of some abstract moral virtue is to sabotage the working class.
Ok, so you are saying that Marx has never had a context that allowed him to make the statement you just made about him before.
This implies you admit Marx never said what you attributed to him. You can make hypothesis of what he would say, but I can make mine too. I don’t necessarily think he would be ok with censorship in a mature communist state, he’ll see that as a means to keep people from “coming of age”, a form of oppression. Free workers don’t need an elite to to tell them what they need to think.
But that was not the point. Where did I say that the capitalist class should be given free reign and control of the press?
You talk as if any thought that’s anti-system must automatically make the person who had it part of the capitalist class.
The “capitalist class” is not a state of mind… it’s a real oppressor with economic power… one does not become “capitalist class” just because they have a wrong thought. For me, as a materialist, “thought” is not really relevant when it comes to modelling the economic power structure.
Then that’s our difference. I despise that strategy because it’s fundamentally flawed, for the reasons I provided before.
I did not say or imply that, this is another strawman.
A worker is not a state of mind, it’s a real person at the bottom of the hierarchy… you don’t suddenly stop being a worker just because you had the wrong thought.
I don’t follow your logic here. Marx was explicit in saying the working classes need to establish state power over capitalists, and control the means of communication and transport. Any elements used by the capitalists to maintain or gain political power should be stripped away from them, including killing them if necessary. When you speak of freedom of speech in “mature communist society,” you’re speaking of a society beyond class struggle, which has never existed. Socialist states have ongoing class struggle.
Secondly, regarding “anti-system” speech vs. Capitalist speech. You quite literally said you despise it when socialist states control the speech of capitalists earlier. In China, our relevant example, speech criticizing the system and the government is allowed and happens all the time. Of course capitalist isn’t a “state of mind,” but private, bourgeois press is the mouthpiece of the capitalist class. This is what is held in higher scrutiny.
I have never once indicated that being in a class is determined by what you believe. What I have done is recognized the class character of the press as it relates to the overall mode of production and the classes governing it. In capitalist society, I would frustrate for freedom of speech for the working classes, but in socialist society I would advocate for controlling the speech of capitalists. In classless, communist society, we will have moved beyond such a struggle and can begin to truly speak of genuine freedom of speech for all.
I think this might clarify things:
I want to defend the right of the working class for spreading anti-system speech without fear of oppression from any elite.
To me, this (along with transparency) is more important than the economic system, because it establishes a basis for the workers to be able to react and mandate change… if a fully transparent system were put in place properly, I believe ultimately the rest of the pieces will slowly fall into place.