Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it’s important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone’s politics, and I’m certainly not here to argue with anyone about them.

My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen.

Moderators of lemmy.ml are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors.

This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml user ban citing “orientalism” as the reason for the ban.

Screenshot of my own instance’s modlog, as viewed by an admin

I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in !worldnews@lemmy.ml that had been removed with the reason “Orientalist article”.

Screenshot of banned user’s history on lemmy.ml

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

Here’s the article that was removed, titled “China may face succession crisis”. It was published by axios.com, which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having “a slight to moderate liberal bias” and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping.

https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/

I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml’s rules that would suggest that “orientalism”—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance’s front page, and not in !worldnews@lemmy.ml.

Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml

Screenshot of community rules for !worldnews@lemmy.ml

There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.

This is where I went from confused to concerned.

Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml’s moderation log.

Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It’s hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml moderators. My own instance’s mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml community. I’ve done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml moderators, but I can’t be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism.

Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China’s racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org reason: Orientalism

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don’t know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn’t behave like China. by @balerion@beehaw.org reason: Orientalism

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance’s or community’s explicitly stated rules.

Banned @0x815@feddit.de reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban expires: 9d ago

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org reason: Rule 1 and 2

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml’s moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It’s only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules.

I’d like to raise some awareness about this, and I’d like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly.

I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don’t share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml’s rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.

  • 𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒏
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    1 year ago

    Pretty much see things a similar way, for me it comes across as a lack of transparency, and in some ways creates a lack of trust in the server admins 😟

    If the devs don’t want certain topics discussed on their instance - lemmy’s flagship instance, imo it should be added to the rules as you mentioned, or users should be directed somewhere else.

    Devs silencing users without explaining why is just going to rub people the wrong way, even if people can run their own instance to get away from it…

    • Wigglehard@exploding-heads.com
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      1 year ago

      I wanted to do a question answer thing over, get their opinion on various things the right is talking about, not expressing my opinions at all unless asked, one mod said i could no problem the other mod went ballistic, called me a nazi and banned me after one day

      • fu@libranet.de
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        1 year ago

        @Wigglehard yep. However on an instance like exploding-heads you have a different problem in that its on the #fediblock list, and many instances will just block it “because fascism.” I’m not sure if they have fixed their issue with new registration in MariaDB @c0mmando@links.hackliberty.org , but for a while I was recommending links.hackliberty.org for people wanting to check out lemmy because they seem to not actively being blocked, nor blocking other instances, on either the left or the right. I guess live and let live is kind of the libertarian thing.

        • AyyLMAO@exploding-heads.com
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          1 year ago

          So users on Exploding-Heads won’t be able to engage with instances run by prejudicial people willing to exclude whole communities based only on a baseless rumour, populated by people who don’t care enough about their access to information to find a home that allows people to be exposed to differing opinions?

          From that perspective I unironically see it as a positive.

            • AyyLMAO@exploding-heads.com
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              1 year ago

              We’re getting quite off-topic on a post I think deserve attention so I’ll conclude with a thank you for letting me know I’ll avoid a ton of prejudicial and possibly mindless, hateful or mindlessly hateful people.

        • Wigglehard@exploding-heads.com
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          1 year ago

          The thing is, when i was on wolfballs we expirmented with letting a flat earther skin head guy on in the hopes that maybe he could chill out and just share his extensive knowledge of alt tech sites and international banking systems and expose the ppl behind the scenes, he ended up just attacking everyone on a personal basis, im not a facsist or a skin head, im really just a trump guy and a regular person just trying to make my way in life although I’m not perfect, although It was kind of funny hearing the skin had talk about how he thought the earth was shaped like a slice of pizza lol

            • Wigglehard@exploding-heads.com
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              1 year ago

              Ill only talk about this because you engaged me on the subject so please don’t ban me…… My grandmother grew up in nazi germany in Berlin during ww2, watched her grandfather get shot in the head by gestapo for refusing to fight even though he was 75, ppl calling average Americans nazis never seen the real thing and i pray they never get the reality check, 75 million Americans voted trump over biden, these are your neighbors and me, am i perfect, hells no, was trump perfect, nah, the kind of nazis germany was, that kind of facsism calls for ethno nationalism which requires genocide or mass deportation and setting up a country based on genetics, trump wasnt doing that, trump wasnt a fascist, he was a civic nationalist with strict anti illegal immigration ideals,

              • fu@libranet.de
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                1 year ago

                @Wigglehard perhaps my question was unclear. I was inquiring as to if you understand why some people think being a Trump supporter would make one a fascist?

                • fu@libranet.de
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                  1 year ago

                  @Wigglehard (BTW, I can’t ban you, I’m just a random #Friendica user, the best could do is to block you from interacting with me specifically. I’m not even sure if I can ban, you from the #FriendicaForum I run @fellowship if I wanted to. I’m not even sure if Lemmy supports the ability for you to join friendica forums).

              • fu@libranet.de
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                1 year ago

                @Wigglehard (BTW, I can’t ban you, I’m just a random #Friendica user, the best I could do is to block you from interacting with me specifically. I’m not even sure if I can ban you from the #FriendicaForum I run @fellowship

                heck I’m not even sure if Lemmy supports the ability for you to join friendica forums).

  • fu@libranet.de
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    1 year ago

    @pineapple

    xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.

    it is if you know anything about lemmy.ml or even most 21st century Marxist-Lenninists