A recent Wall Street Journal article — an actual article, in the workplace/lifestyle section, not even an op-ed! — laments the recent trend of horrible, lazy workers who, umm … *checks notes* … tak…
I know this couple who contracted COVID during the pandemic but refused to report it and take sick days. He - because his workplace was offering bonuses for employees who weren’t taking sick days (don’t remember if it was monthly or annually) and he didn’t want to miss on that. She - because she already took all her sick days as PTO, without actually being sick.
I can’t help but wonder if that’s really what sick days are supposed to be…
Perhaps Americans need to learn to call them wellness days and not place some arbitrarily low limit for amount of days on them. Ten or twelve to start a year seems reasonable. Americans are bizarre.
The Americans that are in power here. Sure. Why do you guys insist on pretending that we approve of it? Unless you’ve personally gone out and solved at least one injustice in your country then you really can’t talk. Shit is hard and a lot of us are trying.
Unless you’ve personally gone out and solved at least one injustice in your country then you really can’t talk.
Lol because that’s how injustices ever get solved: by one guy.
Man, I’m an American but this “you need to be a guy who personally solved government” take is so American it’s rolling coal in a F-150 with a tattered flag flying from it while blasting rounds from two ar-15s.
I mean… Isn’t that literally what they’re doing when they generalize all of us as being ok with this bullshit? The person I replied to. Yeah, it is. So why come at me if that really bothers you? Kinda hypocritical
Isn’t that literally what they’re doing when they generalize all of us as being ok with this bullshit?
No, not really. You not understanding the difference is also pretty American.
In some other countries, the people actually do address problems with the laws and make reforms. One of the main reasons we cannot is because our country is run by oligarchs and/or kleptocrats.
Having industry write government policy isn’t a universal, and shouldn’t be expected knowledge about a country that brands itself as a “democracy”. In fact, many of our own citizens don’t even know the reality of how this country runs.
So, people outside of the American system don’t know how difficult it is for “the people” (as a group) to actually wield power within it, especially if they have bought any of our propaganda about us being #1 at democracy or whatever.
They likely weren’t calling for some “rugged individual” / Superman character to fix the government. Such notions are laughable within some other countries. Instead, a lot of countries have successful protest, voting, and labor groups that help shape policy. The US just hasn’t meaningfully worked that way in a long time (though I’ve been pretty happy with recent developments in labor organization).
I don’t know what’s insulting about that but I’m glad I saved you a brain wrinkle. 🫡
Edit: I’d like someone to explain to me the online phenomenon whereby people who roll around being gruff assholes are also permitted by the audience to be pearl clutchers who faint at the slightest perceived insult two posts later.
Yes, but also setting the norm where it should be is something. We should expect these things. If your business is screwed because one employee calls off with an hour notice, you don’t have enough redundancy. And this isn’t just menial positions either. If Elon gets horribly sick, they postpone or have someone stand in for him. That should apply all the way down the company.
You can save on labor in the short term. You’ll pay for it another way long term, either by losing overly stressed staff or by having someone too critical call in sick at a bad time.
You can save on labor in the short term. You’ll pay for it another way long term, either by losing overly stressed staff or by having someone too critical call in sick at a bad time.
Or anything else. Perhaps they’re involved in a car accident and cannot get into work even if they’re not injured, perhaps someone critical dies unexpectedly, or they get head-hunted by another company and leave without giving you warning since they obviously don’t need the reference.
So many bad things can happen when you only have a single point of failure. Companies will pay for multiple internet lines but refuse to hire additional staff. One of those things is not like the other.
That’s true except a lot of managers have zero power over how many people they’re allowed to hire. So, again, setting norms isn’t something that we can just do. As individuals, we’re hobbled by the wealthy/corporations/government (which are all the same thing at this point of we’re being real) at just about every turn. If they don’t like something they just pay lobbyists and it goes away. To the detriment of the average US citizen yet we still manage to get dunked on constantly as if we’re not getting dragged through the wringer. As if we’re just ok with everything.
You’re taking this too personally. Setting norms isn’t something done by a manager and is absolutely just public perception. Happens in middle school constantly. Kids come in with a new, unusual haircut. First kid in earshot brands it as cool or lame. The norm is set.
This isn’t much more than saying American PTO policies are shit. That’s not an attack on you. It’s an attack on people who are okay with the status quo.
What the he’ll are people doing that they get sick so often? I’ve used 3 in the last 8 years and one of those was a funeral. Granted I can work from home when I have a cold or whatever but I have coworkers who seem like they’re out every other week.
between migraines and colds, I’m down to just 1 sick day left. that’s despite wearing a mask, washing my hands, etc. the last cold just laid me out for a week. migraines (which at less than 3 a year are too rare for the Dr to give me meds) come with visual sparkles that make working on a computer pretty impossible. most cold meds also make me incredibly sleepy, so I can try to work through it - or I can sleep and get better faster.
this was a bad year. last year I barely needed sick days, hopefully next year will be more like last year. Masks help. work from home, avoiding the public, helps. but my immune system is just kinda crap, so I just work through what I can, and call in sick when I can’t.
He - because his workplace was offering bonuses for employees who weren’t taking sick days
Good god is that illegal in Europe. Employees are entitled to sick pay if they’re sick, if no reason other than to ensure they don’t come into the office and get everyone else ill as well. Also employees are actually required to take holiday pay, last year I got called into a meeting and got told I had to take more holidays because I wasn’t taking enough.
She - because she already took all her sick days as PTO, without actually being sick.
Again illegal in Europe, PTO and sick pay are independent of each other. There’s no limit on the number of sick days you can have, although if you go beyond a certain number you do require a doctor’s note, but as long as you have that you’re golden. In theory this is abusable, but because everyone gets PTO anyway, and actually get a decent number of days, there isn’t really the incentive to do that.
Employees are entitled to sick pay if they’re sick, if no reason other than to ensure they don’t come into the office and get everyone else ill as well.
Two jobs ago (in the States) my employer was extremely stingy with any paid time away from work.
I got six days. Total. (Not counting holidays.)
Six days for any and all purposes that one might need to not be in the office.
They even had the gall to say they offered sick days, “because you can use your PTO to stay home when you’re sick”.
Fuck that.
I came to work no matter how sick I was. I knew exactly how much I made in a day, and as soon as my boss or anyone else would complain about how I shouldn’t be there, I’d ask them if they were willing to pay me my daily wage to go home. Because I only got six days, so fuck me if I was going to use any of them for anything other than my own enjoyment. If I was sick, I was miserable and less productive anyway, might as well get paid for that, and not burn any of my precious PTO.
On one occasion, I was so sick my boss actually agreed to send me home and pay the rest of my day without taking PTO…but of course the stingy bastard couldn’t just give people more sick days.
Also employees are actually required to take holiday pay, last year I got called into a meeting and got told I had to take more holidays because I wasn’t taking enough.
Huh. Similar thing in post-Soviet with vacations. If you are not taking vacations for too long, employer will get nervous, if you are not taking vacations for two years, employer required to send you to vacation no matter what.
Also what is holiday pay? Quick search says that it is extra pay for working during holidays. Well, here holidays are non-working days, so working during them counts as overtime.
Overtime is 1.5x the hourly wage in the U.S. This is federal law.
Holiday pay is usually 2-2.5x the hourly wage if the company requires people to work on set holidays. If it’s a day off, then it’s paid as PTO. This is not required by federal law but some states have requirements.
Shitty companies that view employees as costs, don’t pay Holiday pay. Around 20% of the workforce.
Good companies that view employees as assets have policies to keep employees. Like my companies most recent e-mail about the holiday schedule.
We will be closed from December 25th to January 1st. This is considered holiday pay and will not be deducted from your PTO.
Fo some reason have zero issues with recruiting good staff and keeping them.
Huh. I always assumed holiday pay was also 1.5x. I haven’t had many chances to earn it. I’m pretty sure it was at my last job. I haven’t found out about my current job yet.
In the US for every employer I’ve seen, holiday pay is usually 8 hours of straight time (assuming you have an 8 hour shift) plus 1.5x for the hours you worked. So if you worked your normal 8 hour shift you get 2.5x pay. But it’s not. If you worked less then 8 you get 8 hours straight plus 1.5x the hours you worked. It’s also common that if you worked 40 hours before the holiday that straight time becomes overtime. Usually only applies to Thanksgiving/black friday. And occasionally Christmas when it falls towards the end of the week.
Needless to say this varies among employers. If you have a union you likely get double or even triple time for hours worked on a holiday, but likely still the same straight time pay for the day itself. Legally the company doesn’t have to pay anything extra for holidays for time not worked.
It’s literally you just being paid even though you’re not working. Employers are required to do it in Europe. The pay is the same rate as if you were working but it’s got a different name for tax purposes so companies can differentiate between employees being compensated for working and employees just being paid to be off.
Also you have what are called “unsociable working hours compensation” Which means nights, and weekends. And “unsociable working dates compensation” which means national holidays.
Unsociable working hours is usually 1.5x base rate, and unsocial working dates is 2x base rate. So a night shift over the Christmas period would be both so it would be 2.5x base rate. So in other words if you work for 1 hour, you get paid as if you’d worked 2 hours 30 minutes.
The United States operates a different system and companies can get out of it sometimes which isn’t really possible in Europe.
My coworker refuses to “waste” any days he has unless they’re for a vacation… This selfish p.o.s has gotten me sick 3 times in the last year alone, one of the times I missed Christmas with my family because of him… So I have to waste my time so that he can have more paid vacations…
You should recontextualize that for them: “when you come in sick, you are reaching in to my wallet and taking the money I should be owed, and may need, for stuff like ‘oops my entire gallbladder needs to be taken out or else I’ll die’. All because you want to be teacher’s pet: you should be handing money out like its candy (through cashapp or venmo or whatever) when you come in sick, because that’s only fair, and paying the company money from all the productivity lost by making everyone else sick. If you don’t have that money to hand out, maybe you shouldn’t be coming in sick.”
Or, y’know, if they’re so gung-ho about everyone having shared misery: maybe it’s time to advocate for a union.
That would work on someone who gave a shit. This guy cares only about #1. He laughs about the times he was thrown in prison in Guatemala for telling his superiors to fuck off when they asked him to do his job when he was in their military lol
I know this couple who contracted COVID during the pandemic but refused to report it and take sick days. He - because his workplace was offering bonuses for employees who weren’t taking sick days (don’t remember if it was monthly or annually) and he didn’t want to miss on that. She - because she already took all her sick days as PTO, without actually being sick.
I can’t help but wonder if that’s really what sick days are supposed to be…
Perhaps Americans need to learn to call them wellness days and not place some arbitrarily low limit for amount of days on them. Ten or twelve to start a year seems reasonable. Americans are bizarre.
The Americans that are in power here. Sure. Why do you guys insist on pretending that we approve of it? Unless you’ve personally gone out and solved at least one injustice in your country then you really can’t talk. Shit is hard and a lot of us are trying.
Lol because that’s how injustices ever get solved: by one guy.
Man, I’m an American but this “you need to be a guy who personally solved government” take is so American it’s rolling coal in a F-150 with a tattered flag flying from it while blasting rounds from two ar-15s.
I mean… Isn’t that literally what they’re doing when they generalize all of us as being ok with this bullshit? The person I replied to. Yeah, it is. So why come at me if that really bothers you? Kinda hypocritical
No, not really. You not understanding the difference is also pretty American.
In some other countries, the people actually do address problems with the laws and make reforms. One of the main reasons we cannot is because our country is run by oligarchs and/or kleptocrats.
Having industry write government policy isn’t a universal, and shouldn’t be expected knowledge about a country that brands itself as a “democracy”. In fact, many of our own citizens don’t even know the reality of how this country runs.
So, people outside of the American system don’t know how difficult it is for “the people” (as a group) to actually wield power within it, especially if they have bought any of our propaganda about us being #1 at democracy or whatever.
They likely weren’t calling for some “rugged individual” / Superman character to fix the government. Such notions are laughable within some other countries. Instead, a lot of countries have successful protest, voting, and labor groups that help shape policy. The US just hasn’t meaningfully worked that way in a long time (though I’ve been pretty happy with recent developments in labor organization).
I appreciate the insult right at the top there. Lets me just save time and move on after two sentences so thanks for that at least.
I don’t know what’s insulting about that but I’m glad I saved you a brain wrinkle. 🫡
Edit: I’d like someone to explain to me the online phenomenon whereby people who roll around being gruff assholes are also permitted by the audience to be pearl clutchers who faint at the slightest perceived insult two posts later.
Yes, but also setting the norm where it should be is something. We should expect these things. If your business is screwed because one employee calls off with an hour notice, you don’t have enough redundancy. And this isn’t just menial positions either. If Elon gets horribly sick, they postpone or have someone stand in for him. That should apply all the way down the company.
You can save on labor in the short term. You’ll pay for it another way long term, either by losing overly stressed staff or by having someone too critical call in sick at a bad time.
Or anything else. Perhaps they’re involved in a car accident and cannot get into work even if they’re not injured, perhaps someone critical dies unexpectedly, or they get head-hunted by another company and leave without giving you warning since they obviously don’t need the reference.
So many bad things can happen when you only have a single point of failure. Companies will pay for multiple internet lines but refuse to hire additional staff. One of those things is not like the other.
That’s true except a lot of managers have zero power over how many people they’re allowed to hire. So, again, setting norms isn’t something that we can just do. As individuals, we’re hobbled by the wealthy/corporations/government (which are all the same thing at this point of we’re being real) at just about every turn. If they don’t like something they just pay lobbyists and it goes away. To the detriment of the average US citizen yet we still manage to get dunked on constantly as if we’re not getting dragged through the wringer. As if we’re just ok with everything.
You’re taking this too personally. Setting norms isn’t something done by a manager and is absolutely just public perception. Happens in middle school constantly. Kids come in with a new, unusual haircut. First kid in earshot brands it as cool or lame. The norm is set.
This isn’t much more than saying American PTO policies are shit. That’s not an attack on you. It’s an attack on people who are okay with the status quo.
deleted by creator
Actually we’re from one of these few countries that don’t happen to be the US.
Florida?
What the he’ll are people doing that they get sick so often? I’ve used 3 in the last 8 years and one of those was a funeral. Granted I can work from home when I have a cold or whatever but I have coworkers who seem like they’re out every other week.
congratulations, your immune system doesn’t suck.
between migraines and colds, I’m down to just 1 sick day left. that’s despite wearing a mask, washing my hands, etc. the last cold just laid me out for a week. migraines (which at less than 3 a year are too rare for the Dr to give me meds) come with visual sparkles that make working on a computer pretty impossible. most cold meds also make me incredibly sleepy, so I can try to work through it - or I can sleep and get better faster. this was a bad year. last year I barely needed sick days, hopefully next year will be more like last year. Masks help. work from home, avoiding the public, helps. but my immune system is just kinda crap, so I just work through what I can, and call in sick when I can’t.
Good god is that illegal in Europe. Employees are entitled to sick pay if they’re sick, if no reason other than to ensure they don’t come into the office and get everyone else ill as well. Also employees are actually required to take holiday pay, last year I got called into a meeting and got told I had to take more holidays because I wasn’t taking enough.
Again illegal in Europe, PTO and sick pay are independent of each other. There’s no limit on the number of sick days you can have, although if you go beyond a certain number you do require a doctor’s note, but as long as you have that you’re golden. In theory this is abusable, but because everyone gets PTO anyway, and actually get a decent number of days, there isn’t really the incentive to do that.
It’s bizarre the way the United States operates.
Two jobs ago (in the States) my employer was extremely stingy with any paid time away from work.
I got six days. Total. (Not counting holidays.)
Six days for any and all purposes that one might need to not be in the office.
They even had the gall to say they offered sick days, “because you can use your PTO to stay home when you’re sick”.
Fuck that.
I came to work no matter how sick I was. I knew exactly how much I made in a day, and as soon as my boss or anyone else would complain about how I shouldn’t be there, I’d ask them if they were willing to pay me my daily wage to go home. Because I only got six days, so fuck me if I was going to use any of them for anything other than my own enjoyment. If I was sick, I was miserable and less productive anyway, might as well get paid for that, and not burn any of my precious PTO.
On one occasion, I was so sick my boss actually agreed to send me home and pay the rest of my day without taking PTO…but of course the stingy bastard couldn’t just give people more sick days.
Huh. Similar thing in post-Soviet with vacations. If you are not taking vacations for too long, employer will get nervous, if you are not taking vacations for two years, employer required to send you to vacation no matter what.
Also what is holiday pay? Quick search says that it is extra pay for working during holidays. Well, here holidays are non-working days, so working during them counts as overtime.
Overtime is 1.5x the hourly wage in the U.S. This is federal law.
Holiday pay is usually 2-2.5x the hourly wage if the company requires people to work on set holidays. If it’s a day off, then it’s paid as PTO. This is not required by federal law but some states have requirements.
Shitty companies that view employees as costs, don’t pay Holiday pay. Around 20% of the workforce.
Good companies that view employees as assets have policies to keep employees. Like my companies most recent e-mail about the holiday schedule.
Fo some reason have zero issues with recruiting good staff and keeping them.
Huh. I always assumed holiday pay was also 1.5x. I haven’t had many chances to earn it. I’m pretty sure it was at my last job. I haven’t found out about my current job yet.
In the US for every employer I’ve seen, holiday pay is usually 8 hours of straight time (assuming you have an 8 hour shift) plus 1.5x for the hours you worked. So if you worked your normal 8 hour shift you get 2.5x pay. But it’s not. If you worked less then 8 you get 8 hours straight plus 1.5x the hours you worked. It’s also common that if you worked 40 hours before the holiday that straight time becomes overtime. Usually only applies to Thanksgiving/black friday. And occasionally Christmas when it falls towards the end of the week.
Needless to say this varies among employers. If you have a union you likely get double or even triple time for hours worked on a holiday, but likely still the same straight time pay for the day itself. Legally the company doesn’t have to pay anything extra for holidays for time not worked.
Here regular overtime is at least 1.5x for under 2 hours, 2x for over.
Holiday time paid at least 2x or 1x if employee chooses to add day to PTO(which in practice I never heard anyone did).
Both are in federal law too.
It’s literally you just being paid even though you’re not working. Employers are required to do it in Europe. The pay is the same rate as if you were working but it’s got a different name for tax purposes so companies can differentiate between employees being compensated for working and employees just being paid to be off.
Also you have what are called “unsociable working hours compensation” Which means nights, and weekends. And “unsociable working dates compensation” which means national holidays.
Unsociable working hours is usually 1.5x base rate, and unsocial working dates is 2x base rate. So a night shift over the Christmas period would be both so it would be 2.5x base rate. So in other words if you work for 1 hour, you get paid as if you’d worked 2 hours 30 minutes.
The United States operates a different system and companies can get out of it sometimes which isn’t really possible in Europe.
And how much of their workplace ended up sick because of that?
My coworker refuses to “waste” any days he has unless they’re for a vacation… This selfish p.o.s has gotten me sick 3 times in the last year alone, one of the times I missed Christmas with my family because of him… So I have to waste my time so that he can have more paid vacations…
You should recontextualize that for them: “when you come in sick, you are reaching in to my wallet and taking the money I should be owed, and may need, for stuff like ‘oops my entire gallbladder needs to be taken out or else I’ll die’. All because you want to be teacher’s pet: you should be handing money out like its candy (through cashapp or venmo or whatever) when you come in sick, because that’s only fair, and paying the company money from all the productivity lost by making everyone else sick. If you don’t have that money to hand out, maybe you shouldn’t be coming in sick.”
Or, y’know, if they’re so gung-ho about everyone having shared misery: maybe it’s time to advocate for a union.
That would work on someone who gave a shit. This guy cares only about #1. He laughs about the times he was thrown in prison in Guatemala for telling his superiors to fuck off when they asked him to do his job when he was in their military lol
Sounds like it’s time to form a union with everybody else to force him to stop endangering everybody else’s wallet then lol
Is he the selfish one or is it the companies fault for having a shit PTO policy?