I have never once voted for the right-wing party in my country (Canada). I also don’t agree that any left-leaning party in my country is particularly great. If I were in the US, I would be presently voting for the Democrats, but only because they are the least bad of the two. I would also be stumping for third-party candidate viability as a solution to this.
you just ate up the rhetoric that BLM protesting was all “riots lasting for days”
It was vague on purpose. I’m not discussing a specific set of current events, merely commonly attached attitudes to events that have occurred throughout history. Police forces vs. protesters is a pretty common recurrence, no “rhetoric eating” required.
Nobody actually believes free markets are effective.
Well, if you’d like to actually discuss, they are to a limited extent. I also believe that the government should step in to break mon- du- and tri-opolies.
If a bail out is required, the government should then own the business and all patents should be made public. Patent timeframes should also be restored to the original or shorter as all it’s doing is stifling innovation.
Some industries should be removed entirely from being for-profit.
Now you go!
Centrists have been between the two
Maybe some. Centrists and independents are not a cohesive group with set ideals. Each individual has their own stance. It also doesn’t mean that the views they hold are always between the two parties in power, but instead means that they fall between any two parties. As an example, I could be a Canadian Centrist between Green and NDP; I’m still a centrist. This makes ragging on the label kinda worthless because depending on the scale, most people are Centrists.
I would be screaming at the top of my lungs about the fucking meteor in your example instead of wasting time on social politics. Yelling “Whataboutism” with things that important is fucking absurd when one means we’re all going to die roasting in our own goddamn juices.
Trump
The dude sucks, no doubt. To me he represents the enshittification of modern politics, but… You can vote for Trump and still be centrist just like you can still have voted for Hillary and be a Centrist. It depends on what you value most and to what extent.
There was a really good episode of Radiolab a few years back that discussed this. Basically, a legal US immigrant (with undocumented family members) voted Trump despite feeling that the man was disgusting and disagreeing with him on literally every single issue but one. The one issue they believed in so hard though, that it was enough to vote Trump (in that instance, their line was abortion). If you have a line that you will not cross, then that’s all there is for some people. You can say they’re wrong (and in that instance, I would agree with you), but they’re neither stupid nor gullible.
This is another case of how more (and more varied) political candidates would help.
So let me get this straight. You’re on the Left’s side with everything the Right has been calling riots? You’re on the Left’s side on every issue? But you’re a centrist?
I mean, that probably reads for Canada, where your Right-wing party sorta resembles Democrats with an added hint of fascism (at least, that’s how my Canadian friends put it. I genuinely am not an expert on Canadian politics).
The one issue they believed in so hard though, that it was enough to vote Trump (in that instance, their line was abortion)
If you want to lock women and doctors in cages for something that a vast majority of your country thinks is 100% acceptable, then you’re a monster. If you want to include them in “Centrists”, have at it. But single-issue voters are absolutely something “we who dislike centrists” toss into that category that disgusts us.
You’re on the Left’s side with everything the Right has been calling riots? You’re on the Left’s side on every issue? But you’re a centrist?
Well, now we’re getting personal and not into party / nomenclature semantics. But no, I’m not on the “left” side of every issue.
For example, I gave the example elsewhere in this thread, but I believe in much tighter immigration controls, if not outright eliminating most of it for now. You may look at that and call me a racist. You would be wrong. The race is irrelevant, and it’s an environmental and economic stance that led me there. Our current immigration policies allow pushing down the minimum wage, makes UBI more difficult (if not impossible) to implement, and allow countries that are outstripping their resources to simply place those people elsewhere instead of dealing with their population issues in a realistic way. This is one of many things that has also irreparably damaged the environment.
Something done for good reasons is having bad knock-on effects and we should adjust things before it gets worse. In my experience, a Centrist gets to say “right idea, horrible implementation, let’s fix it” instead of just clinging to an ideal.
I don’t like people making baseless accusations. I defend people on all sides when people are wrong about their opposition. I hate it when people think they know what others think and project incorrect (and often evil) bullshit on each other. It’s important to be right with the right reasoning and conclusion, not just one or the other.
I care when Christians purposely mischaracterize Muslims, and I am neither of those groups. I hate people being wilfully wrong because their group fetishizes a certain angle of the truth instead of the boring reality of the situation.
Ideas are important and I don’t feel we can get out of the current shitty slump we’re in politically unless we clearly identify and discuss the world. Labels and group membership make that harder to do.
If you want to lock women and doctors in cages for something that a vast majority of your country thinks is 100% acceptable, then you’re a monster.
Sure. The opinion expressed wasn’t mine, and you’re free to think that all you want. It was just an example of a position that didn’t fit your definition. The episode didn’t get into whether they felt like locking people in cages was appropriate or otherwise. Maybe they had in mind another solution. I don’t know and they didn’t get into it.
Basically, a legal US immigrant (with undocumented family members) voted Trump despite feeling that the man was disgusting and disagreeing with him on literally every single issue but one. The one issue they believed in so hard though, that it was enough to vote Trump (in that instance, their line was abortion). If you have a line that you will not cross, then that’s all there is for some people.
“I’m not a fascist but I am willing to vote a fascist into power if it means I can get my way on this single issue” isn’t going to win over many left-wing people.
Centrism was a perfectly acceptable position when the left- and right-wing had broadly similar goals - a better society, a healthy economy, a happy population, a somewhat fair society, etc. Different sides might disagree on the methods, but they could find compromises to reached their shared goals.
However, modern day right-wing ideals are totally incompatible with left-wing ones. Many right-wing ideals and policies actively cause suffering and inequality. They enrich corporations and billionaires at the expense of regular people. They harm minority groups. They cause misery. Even if someone isn’t actively chanting for the death of minorities in the streets, being willing to enable all that makes them at best ignorant, selfish, and possibly stupid (especially in the case of your Radiolab guy).
I’m not totally against centrism, but centrists - especially in two-party systems - are defining themselves based on both parties. If one of the parties is awful and the centrist is unwilling to distance themselves from them, the centrist deserves the criticism they get.
I don’t think the person was tying to win over left-wing people. They were voting the way they felt was right, which is how voting is supposed to work. They don’t need to vote to make you happy, and they seemed very conflicted over it.
I personally agree that many right-wing policies cause misery. You’re arguing like I’m right-wing and I am not.
That being said, I also think current left-wing policies are mostly toothless, focus on feelings over making the world better, are too easy on the wealthy, and are mostly preformative because the real solutions would alienate voters and donors alike - they seem to coast on “Let’s not make things actively worse most of the time!”
I know they likely weren’t trying to win left-wing people over specifically, I was just trying to explain why centrists are generally disliked by left-wing folks. Them being able to entertain voting for fascists and for generally misery-inducing policies is what makes left-wing people see them as fundamentally not that different from right-wing people. If someone’s so strongly against abortion that they’re willing to vote for a fascist (or at least seriously consider it) then, for most left-wing people, they’re not just trying to achieve a similar positive goal through different methods, but rather they’re actively a bad person.
That’s not to say if you’re left-wing you have to blanket disagree with every single right-wing policy - and I do genuinely think everyone should consider each individual issue on their own merits rather than just adopting the party line - but the overall right-wing package is just so awful that “enlightened” centrists being willing to entertain it are awful by extension.
I do agree with you about left-wing policies being toothless, and I think a lot of left-wingers are lacking in pragmatism - particularly when it comes to achieving their long-term goals and the sacrifices they might need to make to reach that point. Far too many left-wingers are willing to make perfect the enemy of good and end up suffering for it.
Of course, it’s difficult when the right-wing are so good at rallying together and unifying different factions in order to get power. A lot of the right-wing’s ideology is simply “get into power”. Meanwhile, the left-wing is a mish-mash group filled with differing ideologies and factions that unite more out of necessity in order to be politically relevant and competitive with the right-wing than because they necessarily want to be a unified group. I’m not from the US, but I’ll use the US Democratic party as an example: the party’s overall stance is somewhat centre-right by most countries’ standards, but it’s also the party die-hard left-wingers have to vote for and support if they want any kind of representation at all. It makes it very difficult for genuine left-wing policies to get pushed through.
In the current political climate, left-wing parties tend to rely on swing voters to get into power, too. So not only do they have to try to appeal to all the varying ideologies of the people who make up and consistently support the party, they also have to try to appeal to the moderates. “Radical” left-wing policies would lose the support of moderates and swing voters, and therefore lose the party their political power. Sticking with the US example: the US’ Overton window is so far to the right that real-world left-wing solutions to problems would probably ensure the Democrats don’t regain power for years. There needs to be a more gradual shift to the left and a de-escalation before any real changes and solutions can happen.
And I agree with nearly all of that, and I would call most of the ideology you listed Centrist or independent (which are interchangeable to me when I talk about them, frankly), but I see what you’re meaning.
It doesn’t mean you’re the centre of current USA right and left wings, which most of the people in this thread mischaracterise them as. It means you’re between two points. Which points? Talk to them and find out. Maybe it’s a left-wing position but they disagree vehemently on the “How” of the situation. Maybe it’s a right-wing position, but they have a non-shitty take (like I tried to show with my immigration example elsewhere).
I desperately hate the “Centrists only want to kill some of the trans people” argument some make (even in this thread). It’s disingenuous, anti-intellectual, and flat-out wrong.
Again, the real and long-term solution is to make more parties viable.
(As an addendum, thanks for actually discussing and not being just a shithead like some others!)
I have never once voted for the right-wing party in my country (Canada). I also don’t agree that any left-leaning party in my country is particularly great. If I were in the US, I would be presently voting for the Democrats, but only because they are the least bad of the two. I would also be stumping for third-party candidate viability as a solution to this.
It was vague on purpose. I’m not discussing a specific set of current events, merely commonly attached attitudes to events that have occurred throughout history. Police forces vs. protesters is a pretty common recurrence, no “rhetoric eating” required.
Well, if you’d like to actually discuss, they are to a limited extent. I also believe that the government should step in to break mon- du- and tri-opolies. If a bail out is required, the government should then own the business and all patents should be made public. Patent timeframes should also be restored to the original or shorter as all it’s doing is stifling innovation. Some industries should be removed entirely from being for-profit. Now you go!
Maybe some. Centrists and independents are not a cohesive group with set ideals. Each individual has their own stance. It also doesn’t mean that the views they hold are always between the two parties in power, but instead means that they fall between any two parties. As an example, I could be a Canadian Centrist between Green and NDP; I’m still a centrist. This makes ragging on the label kinda worthless because depending on the scale, most people are Centrists. I would be screaming at the top of my lungs about the fucking meteor in your example instead of wasting time on social politics. Yelling “Whataboutism” with things that important is fucking absurd when one means we’re all going to die roasting in our own goddamn juices.
The dude sucks, no doubt. To me he represents the enshittification of modern politics, but… You can vote for Trump and still be centrist just like you can still have voted for Hillary and be a Centrist. It depends on what you value most and to what extent. There was a really good episode of Radiolab a few years back that discussed this. Basically, a legal US immigrant (with undocumented family members) voted Trump despite feeling that the man was disgusting and disagreeing with him on literally every single issue but one. The one issue they believed in so hard though, that it was enough to vote Trump (in that instance, their line was abortion). If you have a line that you will not cross, then that’s all there is for some people. You can say they’re wrong (and in that instance, I would agree with you), but they’re neither stupid nor gullible.
This is another case of how more (and more varied) political candidates would help.
So let me get this straight. You’re on the Left’s side with everything the Right has been calling riots? You’re on the Left’s side on every issue? But you’re a centrist?
I mean, that probably reads for Canada, where your Right-wing party sorta resembles Democrats with an added hint of fascism (at least, that’s how my Canadian friends put it. I genuinely am not an expert on Canadian politics).
If you want to lock women and doctors in cages for something that a vast majority of your country thinks is 100% acceptable, then you’re a monster. If you want to include them in “Centrists”, have at it. But single-issue voters are absolutely something “we who dislike centrists” toss into that category that disgusts us.
Well, now we’re getting personal and not into party / nomenclature semantics. But no, I’m not on the “left” side of every issue.
For example, I gave the example elsewhere in this thread, but I believe in much tighter immigration controls, if not outright eliminating most of it for now. You may look at that and call me a racist. You would be wrong. The race is irrelevant, and it’s an environmental and economic stance that led me there. Our current immigration policies allow pushing down the minimum wage, makes UBI more difficult (if not impossible) to implement, and allow countries that are outstripping their resources to simply place those people elsewhere instead of dealing with their population issues in a realistic way. This is one of many things that has also irreparably damaged the environment.
Something done for good reasons is having bad knock-on effects and we should adjust things before it gets worse. In my experience, a Centrist gets to say “right idea, horrible implementation, let’s fix it” instead of just clinging to an ideal.
I don’t like people making baseless accusations. I defend people on all sides when people are wrong about their opposition. I hate it when people think they know what others think and project incorrect (and often evil) bullshit on each other. It’s important to be right with the right reasoning and conclusion, not just one or the other.
I care when Christians purposely mischaracterize Muslims, and I am neither of those groups. I hate people being wilfully wrong because their group fetishizes a certain angle of the truth instead of the boring reality of the situation.
Ideas are important and I don’t feel we can get out of the current shitty slump we’re in politically unless we clearly identify and discuss the world. Labels and group membership make that harder to do.
Sure. The opinion expressed wasn’t mine, and you’re free to think that all you want. It was just an example of a position that didn’t fit your definition. The episode didn’t get into whether they felt like locking people in cages was appropriate or otherwise. Maybe they had in mind another solution. I don’t know and they didn’t get into it.
“I’m not a fascist but I am willing to vote a fascist into power if it means I can get my way on this single issue” isn’t going to win over many left-wing people.
Centrism was a perfectly acceptable position when the left- and right-wing had broadly similar goals - a better society, a healthy economy, a happy population, a somewhat fair society, etc. Different sides might disagree on the methods, but they could find compromises to reached their shared goals.
However, modern day right-wing ideals are totally incompatible with left-wing ones. Many right-wing ideals and policies actively cause suffering and inequality. They enrich corporations and billionaires at the expense of regular people. They harm minority groups. They cause misery. Even if someone isn’t actively chanting for the death of minorities in the streets, being willing to enable all that makes them at best ignorant, selfish, and possibly stupid (especially in the case of your Radiolab guy).
I’m not totally against centrism, but centrists - especially in two-party systems - are defining themselves based on both parties. If one of the parties is awful and the centrist is unwilling to distance themselves from them, the centrist deserves the criticism they get.
I don’t think the person was tying to win over left-wing people. They were voting the way they felt was right, which is how voting is supposed to work. They don’t need to vote to make you happy, and they seemed very conflicted over it.
I personally agree that many right-wing policies cause misery. You’re arguing like I’m right-wing and I am not.
That being said, I also think current left-wing policies are mostly toothless, focus on feelings over making the world better, are too easy on the wealthy, and are mostly preformative because the real solutions would alienate voters and donors alike - they seem to coast on “Let’s not make things actively worse most of the time!”
I know they likely weren’t trying to win left-wing people over specifically, I was just trying to explain why centrists are generally disliked by left-wing folks. Them being able to entertain voting for fascists and for generally misery-inducing policies is what makes left-wing people see them as fundamentally not that different from right-wing people. If someone’s so strongly against abortion that they’re willing to vote for a fascist (or at least seriously consider it) then, for most left-wing people, they’re not just trying to achieve a similar positive goal through different methods, but rather they’re actively a bad person.
That’s not to say if you’re left-wing you have to blanket disagree with every single right-wing policy - and I do genuinely think everyone should consider each individual issue on their own merits rather than just adopting the party line - but the overall right-wing package is just so awful that “enlightened” centrists being willing to entertain it are awful by extension.
I do agree with you about left-wing policies being toothless, and I think a lot of left-wingers are lacking in pragmatism - particularly when it comes to achieving their long-term goals and the sacrifices they might need to make to reach that point. Far too many left-wingers are willing to make perfect the enemy of good and end up suffering for it.
Of course, it’s difficult when the right-wing are so good at rallying together and unifying different factions in order to get power. A lot of the right-wing’s ideology is simply “get into power”. Meanwhile, the left-wing is a mish-mash group filled with differing ideologies and factions that unite more out of necessity in order to be politically relevant and competitive with the right-wing than because they necessarily want to be a unified group. I’m not from the US, but I’ll use the US Democratic party as an example: the party’s overall stance is somewhat centre-right by most countries’ standards, but it’s also the party die-hard left-wingers have to vote for and support if they want any kind of representation at all. It makes it very difficult for genuine left-wing policies to get pushed through.
In the current political climate, left-wing parties tend to rely on swing voters to get into power, too. So not only do they have to try to appeal to all the varying ideologies of the people who make up and consistently support the party, they also have to try to appeal to the moderates. “Radical” left-wing policies would lose the support of moderates and swing voters, and therefore lose the party their political power. Sticking with the US example: the US’ Overton window is so far to the right that real-world left-wing solutions to problems would probably ensure the Democrats don’t regain power for years. There needs to be a more gradual shift to the left and a de-escalation before any real changes and solutions can happen.
And I agree with nearly all of that, and I would call most of the ideology you listed Centrist or independent (which are interchangeable to me when I talk about them, frankly), but I see what you’re meaning.
It doesn’t mean you’re the centre of current USA right and left wings, which most of the people in this thread mischaracterise them as. It means you’re between two points. Which points? Talk to them and find out. Maybe it’s a left-wing position but they disagree vehemently on the “How” of the situation. Maybe it’s a right-wing position, but they have a non-shitty take (like I tried to show with my immigration example elsewhere).
I desperately hate the “Centrists only want to kill some of the trans people” argument some make (even in this thread). It’s disingenuous, anti-intellectual, and flat-out wrong.
Again, the real and long-term solution is to make more parties viable.
(As an addendum, thanks for actually discussing and not being just a shithead like some others!)