A federal judge yesterday ordered the Biden administration to halt a wide range of communications with social media companies, siding with Missouri and Louisiana in a lawsuit that alleges Biden and his administration violated the First Amendment by colluding with social networks “to suppress disfavored speakers, viewpoints, and content.”
But if the government can pressure platforms to remove provably false information that is actively killing people, it will have a chilling effect on my constitutional freedom to lie to people. Won’t somebody please think of the grifters and anti-sciencers?
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Saying those things before having any data to back them up was indeed anti-science.
You couldn’t know they didn’t have data if they didn’t have the ability to present it. Once censored, it’s impossible to tell what media is, that’s the point of censorship.
You can’t know if what was censored was false information, if you don’t have the data on what was said.
Questioning is the heart and soul of science. Doubting included.
To censor doubt is a demand for agreement, and an intimidation of dissent.
There was a time I would believe you whole heartedly.
I despise book bans.
I see people try to censor other people’s very existence.
I hate China’s authoritarian laws.
I wish to strive to allow as much free speech and liberty reasonably possible.
Then COVID happened. Misinformation, narrative pushing, and just plain lying. My grandma died from the virus in a hospital not consistently wearing masks or even checking for it in the first place. A hospital wear fox news plays abound and nurses proudly talk about their “knowing” of what actually is happening.
I have to ask myself, is this worth it?
I don’t think so. A line must be drawn somewhere.
This is bullshit. They were calling certain things misinformation before they themselves knew. What gives them authority to do this and who actually decides what is true? At the time many scientists, including the CDC director (who was forcibly sidelined after sharing his position), were saying we should investigate the lab leak theory, and they were all silenced as a result. Scientists were saying that they wouldn’t have suggested quarantine (including the UKs top health advisor) as the understaffed medical/health facilities would cause more death than quarantines would save, they were saying that masks had little to no impact on CORONA viruses in the past and peer-reviewed articles suggesting this were literally removed from websites; the list goes on. Meanwhile the MSM was literally spreading misinformation like the Ivermectin story or the vaccine stopping spread story. You really have to trust someone quite a bit to just go along with this while all your freedoms are diminishing.
That’s a whole lot of claims with little to no sources backing them up.
Which ones specifically? These are all fairly well known at this point. Let me ask, if I provide them, do you think it would influence you in any way?
All of them. If it’s the truth I will see it.
But be warned. No tabloid or backwater new articles. Actual studies and statements.
Not even enough info to know who “they” or “them” are when referenced in their comment.
If you’d look at the article in the OP you’d see I’m talking about the Whitehouse via the FBI.
People posting pro horse-medicine posts on social media aren’t ever going to be doing anything close to “science”.
And this romantic concept of “questioning is the heart and soul of science” is just a banal platitude. Rigorous testing and record keeping is the heart and soul of science. Latching on to conspiracy theories is not even tangentially related to science.
You’ve got to do your homework. This has already been proven to be a false narrative set up by MSNBC and CNN (and their subsidiaries). You’re behind. Ivermectin has been prescribed to humans for decades.
But not for coronaviruses. For parasites. And not in the doses that are intended for animals, but for humans. And not purchased from a farm supply store, but through a pharmacy.
That’s not what I said though. They spread a lie by saying it was only for horses, and were never silenced or corrected. They were allowed to lie. “Rules for thee, but not rules for me.”
Some people were actually buying the horse variant of it…
You suspiciously left out all the context of the discussion. I can only imagine why you’d do this. Haha
Horse dewormer was mentioned because that’s what the maga cultists were using, because (sane) doctors wouldn’t prescribe it to humans for a coronavirus.
You agree that Ivermectin isn’t for coronavirus, right? Right?
There has been little to no research allowed that might prove otherwise, but some countries (that were denied access to the vaccine for profit reasons) seemed to have great success using it. That being said, calling it a horse dewormer within context is literally just lying. I’m actually giving them a chance when I leave out said context.
Little to no research? Did you bother looking? I found quite a few on Google scholar. Here’s one: https://www.kumc.edu/about/news/news-archive/jama-ivermectin-study.html
Do you mean little to no research that comes to the conclusion that you want?
I find that it is often the case that people who say “do your homework/research” (wrt science/news) were the very same students who wouldn’t do their homework.
People making claims that “injecting bleach will cure COVID,” “COVID is a hoax,” or “the vaccine contains nanobots to control us!” aren’t questioning anything. They’re making claims that are false and dangerous, leading to needless deaths. Quit trying to act like the COVID conspiracy theorists were simply asking questions in good faith rather that intentionally spreading disinformation in order to politicize a virus.
They’re also not breaking any laws by doing so.
Well at least you can agree that it’s all disinformation. You’re right it isn’t illegal which is why nobody wound up in jail for spreading it.
I also see you quickly abandoned your stance that it’s “simply people asking questions” rather than something much more malicious and damaging to society.
I never had that position.
People making claims that “injecting bleach will cure COVID,” “COVID is a hoax,” or “the vaccine contains nanobots to control us!” aren’t questioning anything. They’re making claims that are false and dangerous, leading to needless deaths. Quit trying to act like the COVID conspiracy theorists were simply asking questions in good faith rather that intentionally spreading disinformation in order to politicize a virus.
But somehow the government and corporations doing so is okay?
That was the data we had at the time, yes. New data can mean new stances, and that’s okay. But notice the order of operations there; new data, then new stance. Not the other way around.
They had data showing otherwise. They were silenced. I’ll keep bringing this up, but the director of the CDC at the time said there was significant evidence to investigate the lab leak theory, but was forcibly sidelined. They seem to have gotten your model backwards. This wasn’t the only time it happened, but people will keep crying “sources” since they know it’s now difficult to find information that was removed from journal sites, etc.
Uh, sources? Specifically about the forced resignation.
Oh, that’s the easiest one.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64891745
You didn’t read that article, did you? It doesn’t support your stance.
Almost all those things haven’t been proven true or accepted by most experts. Stop lying.
Asking questions is fine to inform yourself. Asking questions to purposely push a narrative isn’t
Unless it’s government or corporations doing the lying, then it’s okay.
Still not wrong.
Gonna need a source on that one champ.
ok, sure.
That was contingent on half the population not making it their identity to spread disease.
Yes, it’s been proven time and time again that cloth masks reduce transmission and severity.
Yes, it is antiscience for laymen to question things they don’t understand at all.
Same.
Started out pretty good though!
Nobody is “begrudgingly” accepting scientific results. But you want to tell that story, right? You’re looking for an “us vs. them” situation, but that’s not how science works.
Also, I think some of your facts are not actually facts.
Finally, a question itself is not “anti-science”. How could it be? However, if you’re using a question as a smokescreen to confuse readers or viewers to push your selfish political agenda, that would be shady politics, and it would have nothing to do with science at all.
There were many scientists that were saying we should investigate the lab origin. They were all silenced, including the CDC director at the time.
How were they silenced? Are they in jail or something?
And even if this is true, what does investigating a lab leak do to stop the spread of a virus actively working its way through the population?
I’m not worried about that question, I’m worried about the ability of government to silence people simply for disagreeing with them.
What simple disagreement are you referring to exactly? Everything you’ve mentioned has been pretty clear disinformation that lead to people dying not simple disagreements.
Investigating where the virus originated was the main one I’ve been discussing.
If people making the lab leak claim were silenced, why the hell can I not stop hearing about it?!
Are you claiming that the FBI didn’t force social media platforms to censor information that it had deemed misinformation?
Read the OP. They were censored on social media and elsewhere.
Was it antiscience to say covid originated in a lab in China?
YES, there was little evidence AND there still isn’t conclusive evidence that it was. They just used it as a reason to be racist toward Asian (and it did provably increase hate crime toward Asian people).
Was it antiscience to say 2 weeks to flatten the curve was BS?
YES, if people would have actually isolated, we would have had far fewer cases shortly after.
Was it antiscience to say cloth masks were ineffective?
YES, they are still effective and far better than not wearing a mask at all.
Was it antiscience to question the long term efficacy/long term side effects (I’m combining 2 questions here) of a drug that was not studied for the long term?
YES, the vaccine was not given to people widespread until after thorough testing. It’s fact that almost any vaccine side effect will occur within the first few weeks of it being administered. There was also information and testing about the efficacy before it was widely distributed.
People questioning this stuff were given the answers by scientists, specialists, people with knowledge, and they outright denied the truth of the data. It’s one thing to question, it’s another thing to yell questions into the void and pretend you don’t hear the answers.
To say, as in to state as fact, yes.
To question, no.
There’s a wide gap between “covid originated in a lab” and “covid could have originated in a lab”.
Yet the then director of the CDC was forcibly sidelined simply for asking that they investigate. Interesting take.
Source?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64891745
Is that your source for “Forced to resign”?
That article is based on a panel where evidence was presented, you can simply just watch the panel yourself, although it’s pretty long.
Can you at least let us know the time stamp of where they force him to resign?
It’s the same gap as Covid COULD have come from nature vs Covid DID come from nature, which is what the media and Fauci were saying.
Thank you!
Yes. It would be accurate to say that it is possible that the Covid originated in a lab in China, but the evidence is mixed and it is certainly not provided.
No idea, because I don’t know who you claimed to say it, when they said it or in which county
Yes - because it’s much too simplistic. Depending on the design of the mask, the material and how it was warn cloth masks certainly had an effect on reducing infection - in particular infected mask wearers are less likely to infect others
No - and questions about long-term efficacy were front and centre of studies into how long (for example) vaccines shots lasted. The point was that even short - term efficacy was pretty useful.
No. It’s absolutely scientific to ask questions about it. It is is anti-science tio make stuff up about probable long-term effects when the mechanism of the drug are pretty well understood.
Some of them are “anti-science”, some aren’t. I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make, other than “Experts bad”
Who gives a shit, frankly. The first amendment is the first amendment, science or anti-science or anything in between. Whether or not I agree with anything in your comment.
This is extremely good news for foreign state-run disinformation farms, or domestic terrorists who want to spread disinformation or panic. “Go for it”.
Do you extend the same to lies or threats? If I claimed your computer is full of CP would you still support me?
I personally think this is a brain-dead approach akin to the many “zero tolerance” laws that only exist to remove thought from the equation. “Yes Billy, you may not have actually thrown any punches but we’re suspending you from school for getting beat up by that bully because you were a participant in the fight.”
It’s brain dead to respect the law? Are you drawing a line between what I said and some idea of unlimited free speech? If so, that’s not my stance.
Edit: also half the things you said would be illegal, so no I wouldn’t support you
What else is there to take from this? Sounds like the typical “unlimited free speech” argument that we’ve all heard before.
If you want to argue about the law, the legality of this action has yet to be determined, so I’m assuming you must be in support of it, no? What is your stance if you think there’s confusion on my part about what that may be.
Lies and threats may be illegal but they violate the idea of free speech, so why do you support these restrictions on the first amendment and not others?
Because they’re laws the we have as a society agreed upon and put into place. Pretty simple stuff. I do not understand how thinking that the law should be followed is such a wild idea.
If we want vaccine misinformation to be illegal, we should pass a law. Otherwise, the first amendment stands. What’s so weird about that?
Do you understand why you can’t yell “FIRE” in a crowded theater? Do you think that’s a violation of your first amendment rights?
No, actually, I don’t. Because you can. That’s not even the actual quote.
Sorry I didn’t flesh it out… Falsely yelling “fire” is not inherently illegal unless someone gets injured as a result. Millions of people died due to vaccine misinformation spread on social media.
At least millions, and that’s just COVID!
But the speech is still legal and protected. Maybe there should be more restrictions about these things, but that’s a case that should be argued in public and implemented the official way. Personally I think not, and instead we should be focusing on restricting the things that allow those ridiculous people making false claims to find the other ridiculous people that believe them.
Just imagine what Trump could have done during the worst of COVID with the power to restrict speech deemed untrue in the dark and without oversight.
Exactly! We’re just asking questions! Like how many shots does it take to induce fetal-alcohol syndrom? Because your mom DEFINITELY knows the answer. And when will these WOKE folks (hehe, rhyme time) stop being so persistant with their knowledge and science and let us just say the stupid shit we think of on the spot? Also, why are you allowed to speak if there is a god? The world may never know, but penis. (( | )) B:::::::::D—~~~ (GET IT? BUTT PENIS!) i’M jUsT aSkInG QuEsTiOnS!
I just want to point out that your very first question is irrelevant to the rest. Whereever it originated, we needed to stop the spread but propagandists got hold of people through paranoia and pushed them to behave in ways that INCREASED the spread, and it started with stuff like the first question.
In a land where “lies” are suppressed, he who claims to know the truth is king. The sentiment of suppressing lies is perhaps rightous, but who determines the truth? It damn well wasn’t scientists during the pandemic.
Edit: hell, even Zuck himself said he was told to censor true information.
If you actually listened to scientists during the pandemic, or read papers - you would you know that the main theme was “there is lots of stuff we don’t know, or are unsure about”. Given that, however - there needed to be public health guidance based on the best evidence and probablitlities at the time.
On the other side, there were people spouting, unsourced, unsupported, nonsensical bullshit that would directly contribute to people killing themselves.
They were literally just making up arbitrary rules that had nothing to do with science, and saying it WAS based on science. Meanwhile the then director of the CDC said we should investigate if the virus came from a lab as well as if it had a natural origin, and was forcibly sidelined as a result. Don’t even try to say they were following the science.
Edit: Also, if you’re not even sure what the truth is, what gives you the right to silence people that have a different opinion? It makes no sense. Where is the authority to silence coming from?
Give me a solid example of the “they” in this case, the rule in question and the date that that the rule was imposed.
Are you talking about Rochelle Walensky? If so, there are many possible reasons why she decided to resign, but I can’t find a single source saying it was because she said there should be an investigation into Covid’s source.
Edit: Ah, you are talking about Robert R. Redfield. So from what I can tell, his downfall was that he wasn’t being scientific - he stated that the he thought it most likely that it was a lab-leak, and that certainly didn’t win him any friends because the assertions he made weren’t well supported. But was he “forced to resign because of that” - looking at the coverage from back then, he was under fire for multiple reasons, not just that. I don’t think we can say that was the sole or even main reason for his departure.
Because the process of science (especially in fast-moving situations) is all about producing increasingly accurate pictures of the truth. Scientists are highly resistant to characterising something as the truth - there often more to explore. You can absolutely have scientists with different opinions - but they will be looking at evidence, not just making stuff up.
You ask
The silencing isn’t being done by scientists, its being done by public health officials and that is somewhat different,. Public health officials take the best evidence as presented by scientific consensus and have to create messaging designed to minimise the number of deaths and maximise wellbeing. If the scientific consensus is that vaccination is safe and effective - that messaging will save millions of lives. Some Russian bot factory amplying a ludicrous idea like “the vaccines will alter your DNA or make you infertile” is specifically designed to kill people.
I wholeheartedly disagree, and that’s okay. What I think we CAN agree on is that leading experts (like the director of the CDC) shouldn’t be silenced for suggesting we investigate the possibility of a lab leak, which is actually what happened.
Edit: Here’s the example you asked for:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/graisondangor/2021/09/19/cdcs-six-foot-social-distancing-rule-was-arbitrary-says-former-fda-commissioner/
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So if any one wants, I’m running a sale on Inverpectin.
For the low price of 69.69, you could get a months supply- but wait, there’s more. If you order in the next 30 seconds, I’ll give you a second months supply free- up to six months when you buy six! That’s a years worth of protection from Covick!
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Oh no