Are we really allowing “like if you agree” here?
Yes this is ridiculous.
Yeah let’s not. There’s absolutely no point to ‘karma whoring’ in the fediverse. That’s what the downvote button is for, even if we agree with the message they’re sending.
Any chance we can get the sources for all these quotes?
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Yeah, it is. It was at a time when the Ottoman Empire ruled essentially the entire Muslim world, so it’s reasonable enough in context.
That was my first thought too, maybe the ottoman empire was so big at the time it was essentially synonymous with islam, to a man like Paine in the West. I just looked it up though and it was already in decline by the late 18th century, far from its peak in the 16th and 17th centuries. But it last another ~100-150 years or so after Paine’s death so who knows.
It was already the “sick man of Europe” by the start of the 19th century, but when Paine died it had lost only a couple of slivers of territory to Russia… it wouldn’t lose northwest Africa or Greece for another generation
While I agree with them in this case, why do we care what the founders thought? Originalism is not a real philosophy, just a weak appeal to authority regarding a group of people that did not and cannot represent the people of the modern world.
It’s the “conservatives” that keep making those appeals to authority. Founding fathers this and founding fathers that, because they have no real arguments. Showing that even those arguments are fallacious is justified.
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It annoys me when people coopt bad conservative argumentation to make a good point. There are many reasons why the separation of church and state is important. The intentions of dead politicians who only valued white, land-owning men is not among them.
Most of the people I know make the argument that this has ALWAYS been a Christian nation which I’m quick to point out that it was designed to be separated because of their own experiences being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
Having these quotes with some legitimate sources would be fantastic argument material for me though. Hoping someone digs these up as I can’t at the moment.
I agree with them, although I’m a little bemused by the characterization of Judaism as intending to terrify people into obedience… How do you do that with no religious power structure, no hell and no nebulous punishment for breaking the rules? It’s a religion whose ‘teeth’ are, “Your mother would prefer if you did it.”
Someone never read the old testament
FYI it’s not the “old testament” to Jews, and since there is no God, he hasn’t popped out of the woodwork to have the earth swallow any of us in the last 2,500 years or so… so no one is really worried he’s going to.
You overestimate religious zealots. I know people who cringe if you say “god damn it” as if a lightning bolt will strike instantly. God in the Pentateuch is a major asshole prone to murderous outbursts at the slightest sign of disobediance so yeah, he was definitely supposed to be feared. Jews don’t even say the word god, they say “ha shem” or “the name” instead.
I’m a Jew and I’m saying the word God right now… as with anything else, religiosity varies pretty significantly, but because Judaism is a ethnoreligion and because it places such an emphasis on debate and dialogue, it’s one of the few religions I know of that’s more or less compatible with being an atheist.
There certainly are a ton of Jewish religious fundamentalists (called haredim, folks in the US are probably familiar with “ultra-Orthodox” or ‘hasidic’) but they’re actually the minority, and even they vary widely in their beliefs.
Historically speaking the Hasmonean empire did have quite a bit of teeth. Enough to forcefully convert all of Edom.
I mean sure, but that was 2,100 years ago…
I think it’s a nice reminder that extreme people often necessarily disregard nuance in pursuit of their ultimate goals. When every state is religious and every state is tyranical, why bother trying to pick out a few good apples when that would only further jam the gears of progress?
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.”
Barry Goldwater
Yes, but ‘Like if you…:’ yeah no.
Hey I have refrigerator magnets that say this. I got them from Freedom from Religion Foundation. They are great.
I’m not seeing a like button
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Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States, had complex and sometimes controversial views on religion. He is often described as a deist.
John Adams, the second President of the United States, was a deeply religious individual and held strong Christian beliefs throughout his life. He was raised in a devout Congregationalist (Puritan) household and maintained his religious convictions as an adult.
Thomas Paine, an influential figure during the American Revolution and a key advocate of republican principles, had unorthodox religious views that can be described as Deistic and skeptical of organized religion.
James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, was known for being a man of deep religious conviction. He was raised in an Anglican household and maintained a strong religious faith throughout his life.
This principle was enshrined in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which prohibits the government from establishing a state religion and guarantees the free exercise of religion. Many modern activists claim that the conservatives are trying to enforce their religion on others, when the reality of the situation is that, killing unborn babies is immoral, and people from nearly ALL religions try to evangelize. These activists also don’t realize that they themselves are trying to force a state religion and evangelize, that religion being, LGBTism.
Identity and Belonging: LGBTism often involves a strong sense of identity and belonging. Individuals may find support, camaraderie, and a shared sense of purpose, just as found in religious communities.
Community and Rituals: Both religion and the LGBTism involve communal gatherings, celebrations, and rituals. Both communities often have regular worship gatherings, ceremonies, and festivals that bring people together.
Shared Values and Ethics: Just as religious communities often have shared values, moral codes, and ethical principles that guide their actions, LGBTism also emphasizes certain lack of values and moral codes shared by the community.
Activism and Advocacy: Both religion and the LGBTism have a history of activism and advocacy for social change. Both have been involved in various social justice movements throughout history, advocating for equality, peace, and human rights.
Personal Transformation: Religion often involves personal transformation, spiritual growth, and a journey of self-discovery. Likewise, LGBTism involves a process of self-discovery, self-acceptance, and personal growth.
Accepting gay people as humans with rights isn’t a religion, it’s just basic decency. There is not such a thing as LGBTQism, there is just an ever shrinking space in polite society that is tolerant to bigotry against them. In time bigotry against them will be an automatic disinvitation from polite society.
Calling abortion immoral IS your religious ideology and was generally a weird fringe belief of puritans and Catholics before right wing radicals in America made it the corner stone of their culture wars.
Your attempt to recontextualize the quotes from these people which clearly advocated for the separation of church and state and for not making policy based on religious ideas as somehow being endorsements of any religious ideology is insincere and fails to respect the nature of their beliefs or the words they so clearly stated.
Feel free to create a list of rights which normal US citizens have but gay persons lack…
The immorality of abortion is in almost all religions, not what ever you think my religion is… Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and Catholicism all consider abortion as the harming of another individual. Simply deciding to not follow any religion does not exclude an individual from the laws regarding murder.
The founders of the United States, who were influenced by the Enlightenment era and its ideals of individual rights and religious tolerance, sought to establish a government that would avoid the pitfalls they witnessed in theocratic monarchies of their time. Many of the founding fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Benjamin Franklin, were well-versed in history and understood the dangers of intertwining religious authority with political power. They had witnessed firsthand the conflicts, oppression, and persecution that arose from state-enforced religious doctrines and the influence of religious institutions on government affairs.
By establishing a secular government, the founding fathers aimed to create a society where individuals could freely practice their faith, or choose not to follow any religion, without fear of persecution or coercion. They sought to prevent the dominance of a single religious group and the potential for religious strife that they had witnessed in Europe. This has allowed for a diverse society with a wide range of religious beliefs to coexist, and it has fostered a culture of religious tolerance and individual freedom that continues to be an important aspect of American society today.
This whataboutism is total BS…the entire GOPq is fascist, racist, and they cater to only to their donor class…which the majority of them are POS religious zealots…which fits their fascist racist theological ideology which is to turn the US into their VS christian jihad…sick of the GOPq and SCOTUS too, who have twisted the constitution to meet their fucked up agenda and to gain and hold on to power at whatever cost! There is absolutely no fucking comparison for what the past PoS president did and continues to do…meanwhile the other scumfucks like Desantis turns FL in DeathSantistan with his BS tactics and agenda…fucking suck and disgusting they way everyone in the GOP treats marginalized US citizens…then they fucking turn around and say they are Patriotic…Not fucking even close… Traitors!
the entire GOPq is fascist, racist
Feel free to create a list of rights which republicans have rescinded. Remember, making a fair and equal playing field for everyone is called equality, “gender affirming care” is just a lib buzz word for “gender denial”, and the ability to murder isn’t a “human right”. So, good luck with that request.
Second request, feel free to create a list of laws which republicans have enacted that are “theocratic”. Abortion restrictions are actually just laws concerning murder. Everyone has access to affordable contraceptives. And there are no widespread “Sunday Blue Laws” that are actively enforced? So, you make it sound like you’re just confused.
Patriotic
Libs will find any excuse to deny their patriotism. “Stolen land” without realizing nearly all land in the world has been stolen at one point. “Built on slavery” without realizing United States was one of the first countries to abolish slavery. The list goes on… Meanwhile, republicans remain patriotic even when the libs are in power screwing everything up.
GOPq is fascist / sick of the GOPq
I’d LOVE to hear why you keep adding a “q” to GOP? Is that like lbgtQism?
Regardless of all that. I sincerely hope that you can find your chill, my friend.
Judaism doesn’t consider abortion the harming of another individual, and in fact supports an interpretation of life beginning at first breath; this is broadly accepted Rabbinic opinion supported by Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 2:7. In fact, the Mishnah states that if a woman is having trouble giving birth, then the child should be cut up and removed limb by limb as the life of the mother comes before the child. The Mishnah goes on to say that this procedure may not be done if the majority of the baby has emerged, as that would be valuing one life over another.
On Christianity, Catholicism is the only major sect that has an official ruling on a specific point in gestation being the beginning of life, that being conception. Among protestants, opinions on abortion are far more varied and nuanced. It shouldn’t be surprising that protestant views on abortion have been surveyed in the past and exhibited a split between mainline protestant beliefs and fundamentalist beliefs. As shown in the linked data, 53% of mainline conservatives polled are in favour of abortion if the mother is married and doesn’t want more children. In fact, according to a 2001 study into women seeking abortion in America, Protestants formed the largest group of women seeking abortions; 43% of women seeking abortion were protestant, up from 37% in 1994. While instances of Catholic abortion had declined since 1994, they still formed the second largest group of women seeking abortion, at 27%.
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If you try to impose YOUR morality on me I will fight to the death over it
Sorry, buddy. It’s the world consensus. Not specifically my morality. Also, if you’ve been following the conversation, I was not the one to bring religion into account.
Morality can be approached from various perspectives, including secular or philosophical viewpoints. Secular ethics, for example, seeks to develop moral principles based on reason, empathy, and the well-being of individuals and communities. Philosophical systems such as utilitarianism, deontology, and virtue ethics provide frameworks for moral decision-making without relying on religious beliefs.
However, I do hope that God has blessed you in some other important way. Have a great day, friend!
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While consensus ideally involves everyone agreeing, in practice, achieving unanimous agreement can be challenging, especially in large groups or complex situations. In such cases, consensus is often understood as a broad agreement among a significant majority.
I don’t believe in your mythology and I don’t give a flying fuck about what you think about your god
Seems like you’re deflecting. But, to address your concerns, I’ll have you know that not only does nobody care, the general consensus of the world is also that some type of God or higher power does exist… So, I hope you have a better day, friend.
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