Both host content that are against our content policy and have had issues with users from those sites entering our community crossposting content that violates our content policy. We are discussing defederating other instances as well. There is discussion of lemmit.online being defederated because it pretty much exclusively scrapes reddit content and reposts it, and some content creators have expressed discomfort. If there’s other instances that might be worth considering defederating from, just post and it’ll be added to the current discussion.
and before anyone brings it up, lemmygrad defederated with us.
This isn’t a dictatorship but I ask that you please behave in the comment section and at least try to understand why we are defederating.
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I think defederating instances that post illegal content makes sense, as the admins are responsible for the content on their server.
I think defederating instances that host belligerent users and content makes sense, because it protects those that are targeted by them.
I don’t think defederating instances that post content some people don’t want to see makes sense, a la Lemmit. If the admins want to go that far, you might as well close off the entire fediverse and only host content at your personal approval. Dunno why you’d need a Lemmy instance for that.
If you block the lemmit bot, it’s like blocking the whole instance as it’s the same “user” that does all the posting across all communities on that instance. They really have made it really easy for users to not see lemmit if they don’t want to, and I appreciate that.
It’s not just content though, essentially it’s bots.
The problem with bots isn’t just spam, a social network is defined by the interaction among the community…I think that’s a fair call.
I might be up for having unscripted LLMs on the network, but repost bots are like a weird smell… It’s not that big a deal individually, but it’ll make the community noticably worse
Exploding-heads was defederated by lemmy.world due nazi content afaik, which itself is illegal in many countries, and targets minorities.
Am I missing something?
Edit: or you are talking only about lemmit.online?
My last point is talking about instances like Lemmit, hence why I mentioned it specifically.
I dont like the idea of defederation, but I understand your justifications for these specific instances.
I find the idea of defederating lemmit.online an odd one. Is there a legal reason to do this? Or is it just because you don’t want users of our instance to see reddit content? I don’t quite understand the justification here. (I personally just have their communities blocked)
It was a topic of discussion I wanted community input from as someone brought it up. We are leaning against defederation of it currently.
Hey, I’m new here but I think keeping lemmit federated will help me smooth over the transition from reddit. The majority of all content on Reddit and Lemmy (including this very instance) is already reposted from some other sources anyway and I don’t really see a reason to treat automated reposting differently from manual.
Everything is basically a repost from somewhere anyway.
There are some benefits to doing some Reddit scraping and there are some really shitty ways that it could happen as well.
It would be great if news and or other world events were auto-posted is my first thought. /r/CombatFootage -> /c/CombatFootage would be awesome! Subject matter aside, news needs quick propagation.
Floods of screenshots of Reddit posts would be on the shitty end of this, me thinks.
When all this settles down, I’m going to want to see a map of whose federated with who bc I feel like I’ve been seeing daily reports of instances being defederated. Preferably in the style of an actual world map showing instances as countries with their country size related to number of users.
Interesting, though on iOS it’s not as useful for now, as it just fills the screen with a bunch of dots with no way to zoom out or anything, I’ll try taking a look on a desktop at some point, thanks.
It should be noted that this happened like 10 days ago, and due to a major federation glitch this and the other post is just reaching the lemmyverse now. It’s weird, and probably kind of jarring for all this to enter the fediverse at once. I was so confused as to why no one outside of lemmynsfw was talking about our community meta drama, but I realized the federation glitch was why. More so at this point for those on other instances ,it should be noted that one should be mindful of the age of these events. If we do have to lock this due to the comment running its course though, we will but I am hopeful we won’t.
IDK if this is a hot take, but personally I think the only reason to defederate should be for content policy.
Otherwise, it should be up to individual users to block communities that they don’t want to see.
When it comes to hosting a community like this that hands off policy when it comes to communities that reddit did for a time is not something we can repeat. I generally disagree with such community building ethos in general, but for a NSFW community that’s trying not to implode the high probability that exploding-heads would cause issues serious issues against minority sexual communities here in the same way they have on other instances is not something I feel we can risk. Even more so, their content is poorly moderated in general and we aren’t too sure where we are going to move hosts either. On instances that decided the same approach you feel, it has backfired hard when they have raided communities and began to harass and brigade people. Such cases are recent as well. I’d have to double check the modlog but I’m pretty sure they’ve already caused issues here as well on a consistent basis.
TL;DR: I don’t want to set myself up to having to clean up a bunch of gore and NSFL images being posted into communities on here.
This is reactive, not just proactive. The history of exploding-heads is known.
I think it’s absolutely valid to defederate if the users from a particular instance have a propensity to violate the content policy here.
For communication purposes, I think it’s important to clarify and emphasize that this is the case and it’s not done for political reasons. Maybe I’m overly paranoid, but I always feel as though this is a slippery slope (e.g. defederating from the socialist instance, or the trans/lgbt instance). Personally, for transparency’s sake, I think it’s better to avoid giving the impression that admins defederate from instances that they simply dislike. IMO, the defederation process should go by a process that is clearly defined and a published policies/rules.
I’ll counter with the point that there’s nothing preventing someone from moving to another instance if they don’t like the defederation practices of the one they’re on.
There’s sure to be at least one that doesn’t care to defederate from anyone and/or one that only does so under the most severe circumstances. Worst case if you can not find one that suits your positions on defederation you can always start up your own.
Personally I’m inclined to think of the people in control of the federation keys as bouncers, keeping me from having to deal with the unsightly/undesirable/what have you.
If every time you go to (neighboring town) someone shoots at your tires, you stop going, right? But those (neighborhood town)ers really like shooting your tires so when you stop showing up, they come looking for you. How are you supposed to keep them away? But everyone’s threshold is different. Some people may not mind their tires being shot at, those (neighboring town)ers are just expressing their freedoms. Others are uncomfortable with their tires being looked at weird. It doesn’t make any part of the spectrum right or wrong, but different people have different wants and needs. It’s no more fair for you to expect others to deal with their tires getting weird looks than it is for them to prevent you from getting yours shot.
That’s how the splintering can be best for everyone. No one is forced anywhere they don’t want to be. Whether an instance defederates too much or too little for you, you can pick up and move with very little effort.
This is certainly true, but I have a more pessimistic view that this type of fragmenting dooms this type of fediverse model from ever becoming mainstream. If every interest group splinters, eventually they’re all small enough that they lack the weight to build momentum, as well as the resources to sustain the community long-term. We can see this in the mastodon nsfw instances (a bunch of them shut down), and IMO that’s the inevitable fate of any small instance that lacks the numbers (read: financial support) to support a durable operation.
And nothing of value was lost.
Thanks for the update, thats great news! ☺️ Been waiting for a while for this defederation to occur.
Question: If moderations tools improve and allow, say, communities from certain instances to [edit: NOT] show up on “All”/“Communities”, will it be possible to re-federate instances that allow some communities that are against the content policy?
Most (but not all) of the banned content on here is straight up illegal so it’s not such a huge deal ATM, but (for example, as this is the most obvious “not-illegal-but-still-banned” content I can think of) anyone into CNC can’t subscribe to it here (fair) but also can’t subscribe to an external CNC community either. This may become a bigger problem as the Content Policy expands (as an extreme example, I’ve seen people call for the ban of ALL non-original content, which would be great for ethics but would basically require disabling federation altogether).
EDIT: oof, even hentai cnc is banned. I’ve expanded further down the thread, but from a user’s perspective this really sucks because a lot of stuff that is well in the clear on reddit (sissy*, incest*, *dom, etc.) is potentially banned if we’re going to have a fictional consent police. While I understand the admins’ concerns, from a user perspective the current policy is already much harsher than any website I’ve ever been on that allowed porn.
Also is it even practical/sustainable to police things like fictional consent? Reddit doesn’t not do it because they like it, they don’t do it because it’s unenforceable. Their rules are made to be unambiguous and easily applied: don’t post underage stuff (duh), no revenge porn, no deepfakes, no illegal stuff. By saying “no noncon”, this opens up so many edge cases that I don’t think that they can be ruled on fairly. Is incest noncon? Is hypno porn? What about femdom? Bondage? That one scene from Blade Runner 1982?
This is off topic to your point but lets say, hypothetically, my friend was interested in a CNC-allowed instance, would you have any recommendations?
I don’t think there is one. At least going from the fact that I don’t see many federated nsfw instances here at all, but maybe I haven’t looked hard enough.
Tbh the legal and practical ramifications of hosting porn (particularly the borderline-legal kind) means that this is probably not going to be easy to get going for anyone living in a western country. I wouldn’t get my hopes up too much for your friend.
EDIT: There’s not. That’s a real shame because even drawn CNC is verboten now, and I’ve had an incest caption removed today (no reason provided, but I’m assuming that since IRL incest is non-consensual by definition then it might be (partially?) verboten as a fictional kink as well).
I know I will hold off on contributing here for now until the content policy stops getting expanded every week. I had assumed “reddit-like” rules would apply, but they’re already significantly stricter and there’s no point in submitting niche content that will get removed down the line.I mean, I get it from the admins’ perspective. But from a user/contributor’s perspective I really really hope they can figure out a way that we can still aggregate content that was previously allowed on reddit, else I hardly see the point of migrating.
Appreciate the thoughts/insights. I guess my friend has just gotten too used to reddit, and didn’t realize there even was legal issues around hosting porn
CNC is not banned on this instance and not illegal (in the US; it may be in other countries); the problem is telling the difference between CNC and actual NC, since the whole point of CNC is to look and feel as much like noncon as possible. And then there are the grey areas of dubcon, reluctant consent, etc. It’s a real tricky space to navigate.
Yeah of course. I guess what I’m looking for specifically is more like… cnc personals? Which seem like they’d be fine on this instance if CNC is in fact not banned (yay). I definitely agree it’s basically impossible for an outside POV to distinguish between CNC and just rape in images/video, even with filmed consent beforehand because of the whole dubcon/reluctant consent issues.
EDIT: the original replier (OR?) to my question edited their post to confirm CNC is for sure banned here, so no yay. I might just end up staying on reddit for that, since it’s pretty advertiser unfriendly and I don’t need a mobile app since the only place I’m watching porn is at home. I’d rather deal with corporate BS on reddit than nazis on exploding heads
EDIT2: MY FRIEND*
Glad to hear it. Good choice to ditch both.
This all sounds very reasonable, keep it up.
Thanks good exploding heads is defederated
I don’t think you’re a dictatorship but I have no clue what burgitt, lemmygrad, or exploding-heads are.
burggit - loli/shota
lemmygrad - commies
exploding heads - nazis
slight correction, not commies but tankies specifically
Define Tankie? I’m an authcom and I think I have seen one person use it as a slur correctly…
I get you don’t have to defend the choice and you do you, but people too lazy to read recently using it as a catchall for authcom is absurd.
Edit: in retrospect, don’t even know why I’m arguing this here. I have a lemmygrad acct for commieposting, this account is for hornyposting and they’re only the same thing when pictures of young Castro are involved…
Tankie isn’t explicitly for referring to authcom entirely. It’s specifically meant to describe communists who deny, minimize or discount atrocities and genocides related to previous and current authoritarian communist regimes and that is the context that I use it here for. Regardless, they have us blocked. I felt it was worth mentioning to those who might bring such up in regard to exploding-heads defederation.
authcom
Is auth short for authoritarian or authentic?
Authoritarian, as in I believe a strong state is important to facilitate the transition to communism and safeguard against imperialist and capitalist interest.
Once the dialect is complete and communism has been achieved, that authoritarianism can be revisited, but that’s another conversation.
I know we’re all here to rub our peens but I’m curious about something:
So in this scenario, communism is achieved through authoritarian means. Now it’s time to revisit the authoritarian part. How do you get the auths out peacefully? From my experience with auths they don’t willingly give up power. What do?
Not trying to poke any holes in anyone’s ideology or beliefs. Am just curious :)
That’s the secret - you don’t!
Nobody gives up power willingly, with very few exceptions. I would say that is not auth specific.(Ironically Stalin tried to step down multiple times, we can debate the authetisity of those times elsewhere.)
From a purely materialist pov, once we reach sustainable communism, the state is no longer required to manage material division. At that point, to be honest, I don’t know. I would like to think that a state without purpose would simple wither, but I think we all know that is highly idealistic. So I’m going to cop out and say let’s focus on getting there first.
I’m an optimist at heart. ( Think Che’s quote on a revolutionary love) And I would want to believe that no one wants power if there is no reason material reason to pursue it. I also understand that is grossly naive and unrealistic. So how do we handle it… Man that’s a hell of a question huh? If you find a good answer, let me know?
Che’s quote I mentioned with context: https://www.quotescosmos.com/quotes/Che-Guevara-quote-23.html
burgitt hosts loli/shota/etc exploding-heads are an alt right instance that is very poorly moderated lemmygrad are a tankie instance (their own description, not mine.) lemmy.ml I believe defed-ed us as well which is their right to. I am unsure about kbin.social. I tried to contact kbin.social admins but I am unsure where to.
Fwiw, exploding is asking for mods for other content. Dunno if that’s legit or not, but it might mean an end to or reduction in the fuckery at least.
One can only hope. Not holding my breath though.
why not just go back to reddit at this point
Off you go then
