Wow, ok let’s see capitalism has it’s advantages and disadvantages. Disadvantages that can be solved by social movements. But the way you interpreted what I said is mind blowing.
You might be able to read but does that mean you understood what I said?
The disadvantages of Capitalism cannot be solved in social movements, and can only be solved via economic restructuring. Having many mini-dictators control industry, rather than democratic control via the Workers, will always lead to instability and exploitation no matter the level of social progress.
Economic and social progress must go hand in hand.
I understood what you said, I just think it’s impossible to band-aid Capitalism into being a good system.
You seem to be choosing to ignore all the advantages that It brings. I hope that in the future (if we survive the next decade) technology will be advanced enough to allow for ways of govern we cannot afford to speculate about.
Ones with universal income and more equal standing for all. But unfortunately we can’t stop or we’ll die out, right now whatever we do or we find a way that can compete with other countries or we die out.
Or we find some way to unite the hole world willingly under one flag. Or someone in another country is going to keep doing what we are doing maybe variations of it but still the same thing. 3rd world countries will still be explored and keeped poor to ensure a steady supply of resources.
So right now or we keep doing what we are doing( improving within this systems, yes there will be setbacks) or someone else will perhaps with less hart. Yes we are not perfect, but we have had more equal standing benfore under our current systems.
I believe we can achieve them again thought unions, active participation in politics, and passing legislation that will actually help people. Tbh I think the church and the state should be as separate as corporations and the state. Stoping money flow to government except for taxarion.
Unfortunately this is the position we find ourselves in.
Sorry for typos and long text (I’m European some of these things might not represent the American situation)
I’m not ignoring anything. Tech is already advanced enough for Worker Ownership. Worker co-ops are already more stable.
You haven’t listed a single advantage, only taken a defeatist tone and claimed nothing can be done with no ground to stand on.
Unions are a great step towards Worker Ownership, see Syndicalism.
All in all, you haven’t really made a point. You’ve said I shouldn’t advocate for abandoning Capitalism because it has advantages, but listed absolutely none. You’ve said we can’t move beyond Capitalism, without explaining why. You’ve done a lot of posturing and offered no reasons why you actually disagree with me.
Are you under the mistaken impressions that Labor isn’t part of capitalism? Seems odd to claim these problems “can’t” be solved under capitalism when they literally were. Chimney sweeps didn’t end because we overthrew the means of production…
Chimney sweeps ended because of violent worker organizing and striking. It wasn’t because Capitalists felt bad. Unions and threat of mass worker revolutions have won every concession Capitalists have given.
They exist in opposition to the forces of Capitalism. That’s like giving the US government credit for the Civil Rights Movement, completely absurd. It was Capitalism that created child chimney sweeps, and the blood, sweat, and tears of Workers fighting against the Capitalists that ended them.
We can absolutely keep improving! Labor organization fixed this problem, maybe it can fix a lot more? We should explore that possibility!
Are you under the mistaken assumption that Capitalism got rid of chimney sweeps?
Wow, ok let’s see capitalism has it’s advantages and disadvantages. Disadvantages that can be solved by social movements. But the way you interpreted what I said is mind blowing.
You might be able to read but does that mean you understood what I said?
The disadvantages of Capitalism cannot be solved in social movements, and can only be solved via economic restructuring. Having many mini-dictators control industry, rather than democratic control via the Workers, will always lead to instability and exploitation no matter the level of social progress.
Economic and social progress must go hand in hand.
I understood what you said, I just think it’s impossible to band-aid Capitalism into being a good system.
You seem to be choosing to ignore all the advantages that It brings. I hope that in the future (if we survive the next decade) technology will be advanced enough to allow for ways of govern we cannot afford to speculate about.
Ones with universal income and more equal standing for all. But unfortunately we can’t stop or we’ll die out, right now whatever we do or we find a way that can compete with other countries or we die out.
Or we find some way to unite the hole world willingly under one flag. Or someone in another country is going to keep doing what we are doing maybe variations of it but still the same thing. 3rd world countries will still be explored and keeped poor to ensure a steady supply of resources.
So right now or we keep doing what we are doing( improving within this systems, yes there will be setbacks) or someone else will perhaps with less hart. Yes we are not perfect, but we have had more equal standing benfore under our current systems.
I believe we can achieve them again thought unions, active participation in politics, and passing legislation that will actually help people. Tbh I think the church and the state should be as separate as corporations and the state. Stoping money flow to government except for taxarion.
Unfortunately this is the position we find ourselves in.
Sorry for typos and long text (I’m European some of these things might not represent the American situation)
I’m not ignoring anything. Tech is already advanced enough for Worker Ownership. Worker co-ops are already more stable.
You haven’t listed a single advantage, only taken a defeatist tone and claimed nothing can be done with no ground to stand on.
Unions are a great step towards Worker Ownership, see Syndicalism.
All in all, you haven’t really made a point. You’ve said I shouldn’t advocate for abandoning Capitalism because it has advantages, but listed absolutely none. You’ve said we can’t move beyond Capitalism, without explaining why. You’ve done a lot of posturing and offered no reasons why you actually disagree with me.
Are you under the mistaken impressions that Labor isn’t part of capitalism? Seems odd to claim these problems “can’t” be solved under capitalism when they literally were. Chimney sweeps didn’t end because we overthrew the means of production…
Chimney sweeps ended because of violent worker organizing and striking. It wasn’t because Capitalists felt bad. Unions and threat of mass worker revolutions have won every concession Capitalists have given.
Unions and strikes exist under capitalism, it’s dishonest to claim they are separate. Nobody implied “capitalists” are somehow noble or generous.
They exist in opposition to the forces of Capitalism. That’s like giving the US government credit for the Civil Rights Movement, completely absurd. It was Capitalism that created child chimney sweeps, and the blood, sweat, and tears of Workers fighting against the Capitalists that ended them.
Well they exist in the system that we have today, so what your statement implies is that our system has already have moved beyond capitalism. Yay us!
No, that’s not what I said. Again, you’re giving credit for the Civil Rights Movement to the US government.
If a Movement goes against the system itself, you can’t credit the system for conceding as though it was the origin of the Movement.