Not just here, but also on reddit and other social media.
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there’s got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well? Whether it’s about LGBTQ+ issues, or the exploits of Chinese capitalism, or being able to criticize or make fun of Xi, I see posts here routinely and systemically brigaded and comments downvoted to oblivion that even sniff at criticism of China.
I consider myself a free agent, and China’s meteoric rise gives me some hope for a brighter tomorrow (in contrast to the US), but this blatant campaign of social media manipulation gives me pause for concern. It just screams insecurity and makes me not trust what feels like a counter-propaganda narrative. (Mods, please never get rid of the downvote counter.)
Anyway, here’s hoping for a brighter future, but please let ideas breathe.
Thanks for listening.
It’s because the vast majority of the criticisms of China and Xi Jinping are unsubstantiated horseshit, because condemning China when the US is increasingly antagonizing them is reinforcing imperialist propaganda, and because Reddit and every other damn website is constantly frothing at the mouth over how much they hate China, which a lot of us are sick of.
And what do you mean by “brigading”? That implies that it’s being coordinated.
And what do you mean by “brigading”? That implies that it’s being coordinated.
nods
Unless it’s one or two overzealous chapos with several sockpuppets, there’s some disturbing fluctuations in comment scores.
maybe youre just wrong lol
Honestly…why shouldn’t they?
What’s the point in being critical of China when the entire apparatus and society around you is quadrupling down on that effort?
You can be neutral if you want. Just remember that if 95% of the population has an opinion value of -50, and you have a neutral “I’m so enlightened and criticize everything” value of 0, the average isn’t 0. Instead it ends up being -49. (and that’s generous, since way less than 5% of the population actually has fair views on China)
I have any number of critiques of China (Yeah I’m a Dengist, for Little Deng.) But they’re winning and despite occasional misgivings, they’re doing pretty well since Xi came in at reigning in the capitalists.
Also I have met people who have met Xi, both decades ago and now, and dine with his family. And they swear up and down that he’s a committed Marxist and takes building Socialism dead seriously, whatever other critiques they may have. But he needs to manage the Nationalists/ National Bourgoise/ and Neo Maoist/ultra factions carefully, and that usually means the ultras get shafted.
Its an open secret that Sixth Tone is personally protected by Xi.
I think I can count on one hand the amount of times those topics are brought up about China in good faith. Maybe you’ve seen it more often and seen the brigades more than me
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba. It’s a lot of CHINA CHINA CHINA, which between the current culture, and trying to deprogram baby leftists, it’s really hard to spot good faith discussions/let them grow. And the thing that really sucks is every good China discussion is like 1 rogue comment away from name calling, it’s hard to stay on track
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba.
Because China’s economic and LGBTQ+ circumstances will have a much, much, much more appreciable impact on my life in the coming years than Cuba or Laos.
Oh word, you live in China? I didn’t realize, my bad
If they don’t live in Cuba or Laos either, then why are you requesting hot takes?
That wasn’t my point. People bring up these criticisms of China and hide behind the claims they are critiquing a socialist country/its policies. But hey isn’t that weird, that they are only motivated to critique countries that are currently the target of US imperialism?
If you want to discuss AES countries and their flaws, and you only ever do this for China, just be open and honest and say you hate China for whatever absurd reason and move on
never ask members of the communist party of the philippines why joma maria sison called for attacks on BRI projects which were simultaneously sanctioned by the philippine govt and the USA from the netherlands worst mistake of my life
They increasingly own a lot of media and exert influence around the world. Tencent, Huawei, partnerships with Disney, etc. These things don’t happen in a bubble.
China’s indirect influence through those pale in comparison to the influences of whatever native country is in question. Like do you really think China’s views on LGBTQ+ people, filtered through Disney or Tencent, really makes more of a difference than Disney’s own policies, or the cultural hegemon here? We should focus on our own shit
this is a nice thread and all, but sorry, as a tankie i’m obligated to downvote
Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 8/8
social media manipulation
I’m have Robert Mueller and James Comey ready to answer your questions about evil chinese hacking our tiny website to make people downvote your bad takes, they say it goes all the way to Putin
burning your sources
Found The Intercept’s account.
LGBTQ+ issues
ah yes like the dozens of times you jumped at mistranslations of things like PE programs or shutting down creepy idol businesses that exploited their employees and tried to act like a country that put gay hookup apps on the map with blued was cracking down on homosexuality or literally again because of a translation thought they were banning being a femboy
yeah why is nobody taking your concerns seriously when you again post a guardian or scmp article which uses manipulative language to bait you
you can only imply there is a subtle backlash against lgbt rights in china because the reality is if you compared hate crime statistics you would realize they don’t need western gay rights organizations to stamp out the problem and you’re blowing hot air
Tbh as an Asian person living in Asia, i dont care about your opinion on China if you are a westerner, it is irrelevant, regardless of which “side” you are on.
two day old account with 10 out of 17 comments committed towards starting shit
hmm yes I think I should care
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there’s got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well?
There you go. I have literally no influence on Chinese policy so offering any criticism, deserved or otherwise adds to the CIA propaganda war. If you don’t think the CIA doesn’t have people criticizing china from an “ultra-left” perspective just to dissuade people from offering critical support then you are a fool.
“Chinese capitalism” is not my problem as I live in the heart of the imperial hegemon, the U.S. The U.S hegemon murders, exploits, violates, plunders, and pillages countries on a far grander scale than Chinese international companies could. Chinese companies are not denying me healthcare, polluting my city, running roughshod over wetlands, and decreasing flooding prevention in my city. I literally do not have a vested interest in seeing China go down while the U.S is still standing.
I understand the argument you’re making, but isn’t the sentiment that “Chinese capitalism” is not my problem” just a complete abandonment of proletarian internationalism?
Like if you’re drawing your thought from Marx and Engels at the baseline, they are pretty damn clear that “The working men have no country.”
This isn’t an idealist position in either sense of the word—capital doesn’t respect national boundaries and literally treats the working class as an international pool of labor power:
Hundreds of thousands of workers thus wander hundreds and thousands of versts. Advanced capitalism drags them forcibly into its orbit, tears them out of the backwoods in which they live, makes them participants in the world-historical movement and brings them face to face with the powerful, united, international class of factory owners.
- Lenin “Capitalism and Workers’ Immigration”
Just as the development of capitalism leads to an international capitalist class, the working class, too, is an international class, with international class interests. “An injury to one is an injury to all” is not limited to workers of “your” nation: the victories of the working class in China (or Bangladesh or Burkina Faso or Chile or wherever) are the victories of your class, and their defeats are your defeats.
What you lose when you take the position that “Chinese capitalism is not my problem,” is the internationalist perspective that is an essential part of what it means to be a communist—it’s all part of the same struggle, and the solution is an international working class solution.
“The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.”
- Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2
I feel like that argument ignores the material analysis that would need to be made before settling on what needs to be dismantled. American capitalism is the hegemon. It is, in no uncertain terms, the center from which all other systems of capitalist currents flow out of (Read Long Twentieth Century). We are operating in America’s world system, a system that ideologically claims to be a free market while imposing tariff and protections to stop other countries from benefiting wholesale from American markets - in the process of “loosening tariffs” the American diplomatic body pressures, and bribes other countries to adopt neoliberal reforms; neoliberal reforms come in the way of laws, and market systems, those economic systems give rise to neoliberal politicians, which oppress and pillage their own people, and rotten cultures that treat their workers as disposable. China opened up to America and had to make certain agreements, like market reforms. Countries that refuse to adhere to these neoliberal policies end up isolated and cut off from other countries unless they are willing to play politik with America’s opponents.
So if I am seeking to end capitalism as a whole, and we are really playing by America’s rules, what cause do I have to focus on Chinese Capitalism (I’m using your terms, I don’t think China is, in my dumbass opinion, wholly capitalist). Especially as someone that lives, breathes, and exists within the imperial core?
Chinese Capitalism (according to you) exists because America exists and sets the rule of the game. Putting pressure and collapsing the American center, pulls the rug on the entire system. If I want to show solidarity with the Chinese worker, then I want them to survive in a stable country (not one balkanized and turned into a warlord’s paradise, like America wants to do). I want them to assert their rights to their labor and all it creates without the U.S putting pressure on China to suppress, an alleged, communist reemergence.
Hundreds of thousands of workers thus wander hundreds and thousands of versts. Advanced capitalism drags them forcibly into its orbit, tears them out of the backwoods in which they live, makes them participants in the world-historical movement and brings them face to face with the powerful, united, international class of factory owners.
- Lenin “Capitalism and Workers’ Immigration”
The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.”
- Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2
The headquarters of the international class of factory owners (and financial capital) rests in America. So again, the only way to destroy the system is to advance the collapse in America, insofar as it weakens the leash with which they control other countries and their workers. As someone born in Venezuela and has experienced this firsthand. It’s very clear that as long as America exists my people won’t have the economic siege warfare placed upon them (see UN Human Rights report on Venezuela) lifted. Thus my criticism should not go towards the Maduro government doing the best it can with the material conditions as controlled by America, but America itself.
I mean, there’s some interesting points in there, but I’m not really persuaded to abandon the Marxist perspective in favor of your analysis.
Capitalism is a world system, but moreover it is a set of productive and social relationships that grew over time into a world-encompassing system. The US is, for the time being, the most dominant capitalist nation within that world system, but it hasn’t always been, and may not always be, given US capitalism is either on the precipice or has already begun its decline. We already see how US imperialism is less effective now than 100 years ago: trade agreements are not so one-sided, the US hasn’t decisively won a war in decades, regional powers Outside of the US sphere are exerting more influence in places like the Middle East.
America sets some of the ground rules for how capitalism operates, but again, capitalism predates the US dominance of the system and, to some extent, does not require the US to dominate the system.
If I want to show solidarity with the Chinese worker, then I want them to survive in a stable country
More than that, I want the working class in China to take power, just like I want the working class in Italy to take power, or Chile, or South Africa. I want the international working class taking power and building international socialism, because that is the only way to transform and overthrow the existing international capitalist order. We need not only an international perspective, but international coordination.
The headquarters of the international class of factory owners (and financial capital) rests in America
I mean, a good bulk of capital is based in the US, but this is mostly plainly incorrect. Of the 10 largest companies in the world by revenue, only 2 are based in the USA. Many large companies not only operate globally but are conglomerations of capital from different nations. The company that makes Budweiser, the quintessential American beer, is actually a conglomerate of US/Brazilian/Dutch capital, and has headquarters in all three nations.
Thus my criticism should not go towards the Maduro government doing the best it can with the material conditions as controlled by America, but America itself.
How are you appraising that the Maduro administration is “doing the best it can?”
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By the way, side question: what’s the difference between a Marxist-Leninist and a tankie? I’ve heard some say they’re interchangeable and others strongly object to the comparison.
you got three good answers but here’s a detailed pasta (by /u/fatpollo of reddit) relevant to the whole thread
in case anyone’s curious what a “tankie” is
Tankies don’t usually believe that Stalin or Mao “did nothing wrong”, although many do use that phrase for effect (this is the internet, remember). We believe that Stalin and Mao were committed socialists who, despite their mistakes, did much more for humanity than most of the bourgeois politicians who are typically put forward as role models (Washington? Jefferson? JFK? Jimmy Carter?), and that they haven’t been judged according to the same standard as those bourgeois politicians. People call this “whataboutism”, but the claim “Stalin was a monster” is implicitly a comparative claim meaning “Stalin was qualitatively different from and worse than e.g. Churchill,” and I think the opposite is the case. If people are going to make veiled comparisons, us tankies have the right to answer with open ones.
To defend someone from an unfair attack you don’t have to deify them, you just have to notice that they’re being unfairly attacked. This is unquestionably the case for Stalin and Mao, who have been unjustly demonized more than any other heads of state in history. Tankies understand that there is a reason for this: the Cold War, in which the US spent countless billions of dollars trying to undermine and destroy socialism, specifically Marxist-Leninist states. Many western leftists think that all this money and energy had no substantial effect on their opinions, but this seems extremely naive. We all grew up in ideological/media environments shaped profoundly by the Cold War, which is why Cold War anticommunist ideas about the Soviets being monsters are so pervasive a dogma (in the West).
The reason we “defend authoritarian dictators” is because we want to defend the accomplishments of really existing socialism, and other people’s false or exaggerated beliefs about those “dictators” almost always get in the way - it’s not tankies but normies who commit the synecdoche of reducing all of really existing socialism to Stalin and Mao. Those accomplishments include raising standards of living, achieving unprecedented income equality, massive gains in women’s rights and the position of women vis-a-vis men, scaring the West into conceding civil rights and the welfare state, defeating the Nazis, ending illiteracy, raising life expectancy, putting an end to periodic famines, inspiring and providing material aid to decolonizing movements (e.g. Vietnam, China, South Africa, Burkina Faso, Indonesia), and making greater strides in the direction of abolishing capitalism than any other society has ever made. These are the gains that are so important to insist on, against the CIA/Trotskyist/ultraleft consensus that the Soviet Union was basically an evil empire and Stalin a deranged butcher.
There are two approaches one can take to people who say “socialism = Stalin = bad”: you can try to break the first leg of the equation or the second. Trotskyists take the first option; they’ve had the blessing of the academy, foundation and CIA money for their publishing outfits, and controlled the narrative in the West for the better part of the last century. But they haven’t managed to make a successful revolution anywhere in all that time. Recently, socialism has been gaining in popularity… and so have Marxism-Leninism and support for Stalin and Mao. Thus it’s not the case that socialism can only gain ground in the West by throwing really existing socialism and socialist leaders under the bus.
The thing is, delinking socialism from Stalin also means delinking it from the Soviet Union, disavowing everything that’s been done under the name of socialism as “Stalinist”. The “socialism” that results from this procedure is defined as grassroots, bottom-up, democratic, non-bureaucratic, nonviolent, non-hierarchical… in other words, perfect. So whenever real revolutionaries (say, for example, the Naxals in India) do things imperfectly they are cast out of “socialism” and labeled “Stalinists”. This is clearly an example of respectability politics run amok. Tankies believe that this failure of solidarity, along with the utopian ideas that the revolution can win without any kind of serious conflict or without party discipline, are more significant problems for the left than is “authoritarianism” (see Engels for more on this last point). We believe that understanding the problems faced by Stalin and Mao helps us understand problems generic to socialism, that any successful socialism will have to face sooner or later. This is much more instructive and useful than just painting nicer and nicer pictures of socialism while the world gets worse and worse.
It’s extremely unconvincing to say “Sure it was horrible last time, but next time it’ll be different”. Trotskyists and ultraleftists compensate by prettying up their picture of socialism and picking more obscure (usually short-lived) experiments to uphold as the real deal. But this just gives ammunition to those who say “Socialism doesn’t work” or “Socialism is a utopian fantasy”. And lurking behind the whole conversation is Stalin, who for the average Westerner represents the unadvisability of trying to radically change the world at all. No matter how much you insist that your thing isn’t Stalinist, the specter of Stalin is still going to affect how people think about (any form of) socialism - tankies have decided that there is no getting around the problem of addressing Stalin’s legacy. That legacy, as it stands, at least in Western public opinion (they feel differently about him in other parts of the world), is largely the product of Cold War propaganda.
And shouldn’t we expect capitalists to smear socialists, especially effective socialists? Shouldn’t we expect to hear made up horror stories about really existing socialism to try and deter us from trying to overthrow our own capitalist governments? Think of how the media treats antifa. Think of WMDs in Iraq, think of how concentrated media ownership is, think of the regularity with which the CIA gets involved in Hollywood productions, think of the entirety of dirty tricks employed by the West during the Cold War (starting with the invasion of the Soviet Union immediately after the October Revolution by nearly every Western power), and then tell me they wouldn’t lie about Stalin. Robert Conquest was IRD. Gareth Jones worked for the Rockefeller Institute, the Chrysler Foundation and Standard Oil and was buddies with Heinz and Hitler. Solzhenitsyn was a virulently antisemitic fiction writer. Everything we know about the power of media and suggestion indicates that the anticommunist and anti-Stalin consensus could easily have been manufactured irrespective of the facts - couple that with an appreciation for how legitimately terrified the ruling classes of the West were by the Russian and Chinese revolutions and you have means and motive.
Anyway, the basic point is that socialist revolution is neither easy (as the Trotskyists and ultraleftists would have it) nor impossible (as the liberals and conservatives would have it), but hard. It will require dedication and sacrifice and it won’t be won in a day. Tankies are those people who think the millions of communists who fought and died for socialism in the twentieth century weren’t evil, dupes, or wasting their time, but people to whom we owe a great deal and who can still teach us a lot.
Or, to put it another way: socialism has powerful enemies. Those enemies don’t care how you feel about Marx or Makhno or Deleuze or communism in the abstract, they care about your feelings towards FARC, the Naxals, Cuba, North Korea, etc. They care about your position with respect to states and contenders-for-statehood, and how likely you are to try and emulate them. They are not worried about the molecular and the rhizomatic because they know that those things can be brought back into line by the application of force. It’s their monopoly on force that they are primarily concerned to protect. When you desert real socialism in favor of ideal socialism, the kind that never took up arms against anybody, you’re doing them a favor.
STOOOOP YOURE DOING IMPERIALISM QUESTIONING AN IMPERIAL POWER
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