Every time this shit comes up we have to have the same discussion.
These people aren’t shitty because they aren’t following Jesus, they are shitty because they have been made credulous by religion, believing whatever is convenient for the scam artist on the pulpit.
This isn’t going to get fixed by trying to argue some romantic interpretation of Jesus that you think would be nice. They are stories, made up stories, contradicting stories and lies. You will never find truth in the Bible or any religious text because it’s made up bullshit.
We need to help free these people from religious shackles. There have been studies that have shown that as you become less religious you become more compassionate and less judgmental.
OP’s argument has to be made. You want to shave off as many of the fools following that twisted ideology as you can, via any argument that rings true. Which means your argument also needs to be made, but I don’t think it’s going to convince a lot of conservatives or undecided voters. Hell I think pointing out the hypocrisy as OP is doing is more likely to convince them to become atheist, than your argument is.
Removing religion altogether is a long term goal that sounds nice. Not having the world’s superpower go fascist is a short-term one that is essential. Turning a fundamentalist christian into a compassionate christian makes the danger go down significantly. And you can get decent traditions of charity and even activism from the compassionate side of christianity.
And on a final note, I’ve been in atheist circles long enough to see some of them go bad. Like racism, mysogyny, etc. Atheism does not cure all. Religion makes things worse but is not the source of our problems.
What I’m trying to get at, is society’s problem run deeper than religion vs atheism, it’s just one dimension, and not the most important.
Wherever it’s going, step 1 is, if possible, engaging on their own terms with material they have accepted. No one is going to be receptive to just rejecting the belief system they grew up with just because someone said so.
If the scam artist is tapping into the material they were fed growing up and framing what they want in those terms, and your counter point is “well everything you were fed growing up with was stupid”, guess who wins?
Whether you agree with them being religious or not, the fact remains their opinions hold sway and to be utterly dismissive because of their faith is to leave them vulnerable to manipulation.
Organized religion can be dangerous as it ascribes the authority of a god to the words of man. By refusing to engage at all on their own terms, you would give even more power to the words of unscrupulous people.
Who said anything about being dismissive? The solution isn’t to allow them to dominate everyone by capitulating to them thinking we need their help or approval for anything. The answer is to simply move on without them and to build a new empire they’re not allowed to control or participate in out of the old, and to let them rot in the ruins of the old.
The problem isn’t scammers. The problem is evil religious types.
In the US, about 2/3rds of people are Christian. It’s hard to argue for moving on without the majority of the population. The vast majority of which can be reasoned with, but they are going to be less likely to be receptive if the people talking are just saying how dumb their beliefs are and that they were raised wrong.
I may wish we spent less time fixated on the words of people long gone, and trying to claim authority by making up how we think they would have responded to some modern issue they never were faced with. This is not just religion, but also with historical figures (e.g. all the “founding fathers” speculation) or dead celebrities. However we can’t ignore how values were instilled in folks when we have the chance to appeal to the better teachings of their upbringing.
I agree with your sentiment, but I have to push back on Hitler not relying on religion. At the very least he used religion to get his population with him. As far as I remember his religiosity has been questioned as being sincere or not, but he himself never claimed not to be christian if I’m not mistaken.
I think even that is giving them too much credit. They like to hurt and abuse people and fundamentalist, far-right churches give them groups to abuse and absolution from their imaginary friend.
We all already know it is stories, your based atheist take however, in perfect irony, does not detract from the logic of the statement and is not fitting here
Every time this shit comes up we have to have the same discussion.
These people aren’t shitty because they aren’t following Jesus, they are shitty because they have been made credulous by religion, believing whatever is convenient for the scam artist on the pulpit.
This isn’t going to get fixed by trying to argue some romantic interpretation of Jesus that you think would be nice. They are stories, made up stories, contradicting stories and lies. You will never find truth in the Bible or any religious text because it’s made up bullshit.
We need to help free these people from religious shackles. There have been studies that have shown that as you become less religious you become more compassionate and less judgmental.
OP’s argument has to be made. You want to shave off as many of the fools following that twisted ideology as you can, via any argument that rings true. Which means your argument also needs to be made, but I don’t think it’s going to convince a lot of conservatives or undecided voters. Hell I think pointing out the hypocrisy as OP is doing is more likely to convince them to become atheist, than your argument is.
Removing religion altogether is a long term goal that sounds nice. Not having the world’s superpower go fascist is a short-term one that is essential. Turning a fundamentalist christian into a compassionate christian makes the danger go down significantly. And you can get decent traditions of charity and even activism from the compassionate side of christianity.
And on a final note, I’ve been in atheist circles long enough to see some of them go bad. Like racism, mysogyny, etc. Atheism does not cure all. Religion makes things worse but is not the source of our problems.
What I’m trying to get at, is society’s problem run deeper than religion vs atheism, it’s just one dimension, and not the most important.
Wherever it’s going, step 1 is, if possible, engaging on their own terms with material they have accepted. No one is going to be receptive to just rejecting the belief system they grew up with just because someone said so.
If the scam artist is tapping into the material they were fed growing up and framing what they want in those terms, and your counter point is “well everything you were fed growing up with was stupid”, guess who wins?
Well, no one, because the problem isn’t the scammer, the problem is the fact they’re still religious.
Whether you agree with them being religious or not, the fact remains their opinions hold sway and to be utterly dismissive because of their faith is to leave them vulnerable to manipulation.
Organized religion can be dangerous as it ascribes the authority of a god to the words of man. By refusing to engage at all on their own terms, you would give even more power to the words of unscrupulous people.
Who said anything about being dismissive? The solution isn’t to allow them to dominate everyone by capitulating to them thinking we need their help or approval for anything. The answer is to simply move on without them and to build a new empire they’re not allowed to control or participate in out of the old, and to let them rot in the ruins of the old.
The problem isn’t scammers. The problem is evil religious types.
In the US, about 2/3rds of people are Christian. It’s hard to argue for moving on without the majority of the population. The vast majority of which can be reasoned with, but they are going to be less likely to be receptive if the people talking are just saying how dumb their beliefs are and that they were raised wrong.
I may wish we spent less time fixated on the words of people long gone, and trying to claim authority by making up how we think they would have responded to some modern issue they never were faced with. This is not just religion, but also with historical figures (e.g. all the “founding fathers” speculation) or dead celebrities. However we can’t ignore how values were instilled in folks when we have the chance to appeal to the better teachings of their upbringing.
Hitler and Stalin didn’t rely on religion. Assuming that’s the only cause it’s a big mistake.
I agree with your sentiment, but I have to push back on Hitler not relying on religion. At the very least he used religion to get his population with him. As far as I remember his religiosity has been questioned as being sincere or not, but he himself never claimed not to be christian if I’m not mistaken.
The SS literarily wore “God with us” on their belt buckles…
I think even that is giving them too much credit. They like to hurt and abuse people and fundamentalist, far-right churches give them groups to abuse and absolution from their imaginary friend.
Maybe instead of shooting up schools, insane people should go shoot up churches and get people to be afraid to go to them.
What the fuck is wrong with you. Either that’s a terrible joke in poor taste or a terrible opinion.
Apologies I forgot to add the /s
No it is a very valid argument
We all already know it is stories, your based atheist take however, in perfect irony, does not detract from the logic of the statement and is not fitting here