All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it’s not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It’s talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them.
Doesn’t it?
I think when Jesus said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
I think when Jesus said “love your enemies […] Be perfect” Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
I think when Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor” Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I’m not an ethical enough person to do them. I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bullshit, and that it’s better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
No. That is you picking and choosing verses. Which I can do as well.
He was quite clear that his way was the only way to heaven and what’s more just saying you followed him wasn’t enough. You can’t be tolerant of other views when you are telling people that the holders of other views are going to burn in hell and even those who agree with you might still not measure up.
He was quite clear that you couldn’t follow him and have a good relationship with people who didn’t. That outsiders would hate you and you would hate them. That the very family unit was a snare to keep you away from him. Again this is a hurtful non-tolerant view.
Then he told his followers of the time of his wrath was coming where he would torture those who opposed him and his followers would go around murdering many tossing the bodies at his feet.
You can’t be tolerant of other views when you are telling people that the holders of other views are going to burn in hell
Hell isn’t a place where people are eternally tortured by Satan-- it’s an event, it hasn’t happened yet, and it’ll be originally prepared for Satan and the demons. The idea of humans having immortal souls comes from greek philosophy and is not Biblical. Any humans that go to hell (the lake of fire) will die (I’m not quite sure about the Demons, I’ll have to do more research). Heaven isn’t just about living forever, it’s also about being with God forever, and if you want to be with Him forever, why wouldn’t you eant to be with Him now? I think the lake of fire (I’m calling it that because the word “hell” has a lot of unhelpful connotations to it) might just be the absence of God. Keep in mind that this is from Revelation which uses a lot of metaphors and prophetic imagery.
He was quite clear that you couldn’t follow him and have a good relationship with people who didn’t.
That’s not what He said: He said that He needs to be at the centre of our lives. That certainly doesn’t mean that we can’t have good relationships with others, both believers and non-believers. "We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20).
That outsiders would hate you and you would hate them.
He didn’t say that non-believers and believers should hate each other, He said that His teaching would be controversal and decisive-- “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34 ). Of course He will bring peace when He returns and His teachings encourage peace (although it isn’t presented as being the most important thing), but throughout history His teachings have been very controversal.
That the very family unit was a snare to keep you away from him
I’m not quite sure which verses you’re talking about here, but I can think of two: Matthew 10:35-36 and Luke 14:26. The first one is the continuation of when He says that He came to bring a sword and He is still talking about how His teachings would ve controversial and decisive. In the second one He doesn’t mean to literally hate, He means it comparitively. He’s talking again about how He should be at the centre of our lives and our most important thing.
Then he told his followers of the time of his wrath was coming where he would torture those who opposed him
I talked about this in my response to the bit about tolerance
his followers would go around murdering many tossing the bodies at his feet.
I don’t remember reading about this. Could you tell me where it’s found?
Most of what you’re saying don’t contradict progressivism.
The things that do, I would say from the other reply to you are pretty controversial interpretations or contexts, or downright so mis-explained by you that people aren’t able to guess what verses you mean.
I’m not a Christian, but I’m not going to bury my head from seeing how progressive their namesake was.
Most of what you’re saying don’t contradict progressivism.
How do you unify the absolute obedience to God with a secular society? How do you unify strict adherence to all the commandments with a secular government? How do you unify god ordained leadership with democracy?
The things that do, I would say from the other reply to you are pretty controversial interpretations or contexts
Very well. Show me what verse I am wrong about and the correct understanding. Then explain how you determined that and how you determines that Christian leaders and thinkers have been so wrong for so long about the meaning of these passages?
I’m not a Christian, but I’m not going to bury my head from seeing how progressive their namesake was.
Which is why he spoke out in support of the LGBT, religious tolerance, and against slavery? Oh wait, he didn’t.
How do you unify the absolute obedience to God with a secular society
Render unto Caesar? Jesus’ preaching seems clearly to favor things like welfare and social sharing over blasphemy laws. He directly broke the religious mandates of his people in favor of helping those in need.
Very well. Show me what verse I am wrong about and the correct understanding
Part of my objection is that many of us couldn’t even figure out what verses you meant. Name a verse that clearly shows Jesus must support the political Right and then we can discuss it.
Which is why he spoke out in support of the LGBT, religious tolerance, and against slavery? Oh wait, he didn’t
It might surprise you, but Jesus didn’t live in 20th Century America. With that in mind:
LGBT - This is literally why I argue that Christians inject anti-gay rhetoric. He DIDN’T speak out about how to treat gay people in an empire where homosexuality was largely tolerated. Short of him turning to the camera and starting to comment on video games, one wouldn’t expect him to talk about gay rights, or abortion, or any 20th century comedy.
religious tolerance
While he tried to convert pagans, he was accepting of them in a smaller region where they were largely outcasts. Pagan influences are a large part of why Christianity doesn’t look like Judaism-plus-plus. The Jewish people were ruled by a pagan empire, and yet again we have no speech against it.
against slavery
In this one you might have a point. But I think you’re stretching if looking at it as an outsider. Through all the books of progressive teaching, focusing on the fact he fails to take the time to condemn slavery seems like you’re showing your hand if it’s your reason for rejecting his general progressivism.
Unlike Christians, I don’t think Jesus was perfect. I’m convinced if he were alive running for office, he’d be Far Left.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
There’s no evidence to support this. It’s an elaborate bit of apologia that rich Christians use to try to dodge the fact they shouldn’t be rich. The copium is so strong that people will dig up pictures of specific gates (from centuries later) to try to back it up.
I always heard it in the context of trivia, like the eye of the needle was a really small gate used to allow pedestrian access to the city while allowing a wall to still keep out armies. A camel still wouldn’t fit by design, so I guess I’ve never heard it in the context of apologetics of rich people, or maybe I assumed the people I was talking to were being good-faith.
I think when Jesus said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
This one takes a bit of cultural context, I have a book at home that has a good section on this but I’m traveling now so I’ll type this part when I get home. But the gist of it is that don’t just ‘put up’ with it, but be kind to them.Fight violence and oppresion with kindness.draw attention to them.Force them to treat you (even if just to fight you) as an equal. Like it says in Proverbs 25:21-22, “If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.”
I think when Jesus said “love your enemies […] Be perfect” Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
yep, that’s what He meant: “Love your enemies, pray for those who curse you”. I think this ties in a bit with the cheek turning.
I think when Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor” Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
This is what He said just before the bit about the camel going through the needle eye. A man came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and the man said that He’d done that all his life. Then Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”. The man then walked away sadly because he had a lot of stuff and Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
yeah He meant that it would be easier for a camel (like the animal, camelus, this one) to ge through the eye of a needle (like the hole in the end of the sewing tool, the bit in the top right corner of the main picture of this article). Also lol for Supply Side Jesus.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I’m not an ethical enough person to do them.
Same here, but with God’s help I come to Him, He pulls me closer, and I become more like Him. And when I fall (or jump) He comes and gets me and picks me up again.
I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bull****, and that it’s better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
I’ll have to disagree with you here, I firmly believe that Jesus is God come to earth as a human.
(sorry it took me ages to reply, I’ve been busy and I wanted to sit down and think about this reply)
Which English translation do you prefer and recommend? I like NET because of it’s less-rights reserved copyright, but for ease of understanding I prefer translations that use contemporary language instead of just footnotes.
be kind to them. Fight violence and oppresion with kindness. draw attention to them.
I think this characterization of turning the other cheek is more complete and supported by the nearby text, even for someone like me who prefers Jefferson’s eliding.
Re: “do not resist”, are there other nearby passages that expand it to more than just refraining from violence, into actually resisting evil persons? I ethically agree with your expanded position of trying to overcome injustice in this world - but doesn’t the quotes of Jesus in the canonical books rely instead on waiting for justice in heaven and hell, and not on Earth?
Which English translation do you prefer and recommend?
I normally use the KJV (I’m used to it) but in this thread I’ve mostly been quoting the NIV.
“do not resist”, are there other nearby passages that expand it to more than just refraining from violence, into actually resisting evil persons?
(I’m assuming that you mean “do not resist” as in Matthew 5:39)
So the full text of Matthew 5:39 is
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
In this verse Jesus is talking about vengeance and how we should react to mistreatment. I believe that the first part of “do not resist an evil person” refers to violent resistance. The second part of “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also” is a bit more complicated.
So in the culture of the time/place, the right hand was typically associated with things like honour and authority, and a backhand slap on the left cheek with the right hand was considered to be insulting to the slappee and a sign that the slapper considered the slappee to be inferior. By turning their right cheek to them, the slappee gives the slapper three choices:
Break social taboo
If the slapper were to deliver another backhand slap with their left hand, they would go against social norms and could potentially undermine their authority.
Fight as equals
If the slapper were to deliver a fronthand slap or a punch with their right hand, they would no longer be treating the slappee as inferior but would instead be fighting as equals.
Give up
If the slapper were to give up and leave the slappee alone, then the slapper would no longer be in authority and the slappee would win.
but doesn’t the quotes of Jesus in the canonical books rely instead on waiting for justice in heaven and hell, and not on Earth?
I’m pretty sure He says things like that but I can’t think of any specific verses.
(sorry it took a while for me to answer, your reply didn’t show up on my app for some reason)
Doesn’t it? I think when Jesus said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
I think when Jesus said “love your enemies […] Be perfect” Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
I think when Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor” Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I’m not an ethical enough person to do them. I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bullshit, and that it’s better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
The biggest lie the Religious Right repeats is by rejecting that Jesus would be a progressive.
Jesus (at least as depicted by the Bible) advocated nothing about hurting people who were different, and preached tolerance throughout his life.
No. That is you picking and choosing verses. Which I can do as well.
He was quite clear that his way was the only way to heaven and what’s more just saying you followed him wasn’t enough. You can’t be tolerant of other views when you are telling people that the holders of other views are going to burn in hell and even those who agree with you might still not measure up.
He was quite clear that you couldn’t follow him and have a good relationship with people who didn’t. That outsiders would hate you and you would hate them. That the very family unit was a snare to keep you away from him. Again this is a hurtful non-tolerant view.
Then he told his followers of the time of his wrath was coming where he would torture those who opposed him and his followers would go around murdering many tossing the bodies at his feet.
He said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
This is what the parable of the sheep and the goats(what the original post was based on) is about.
Hell isn’t a place where people are eternally tortured by Satan-- it’s an event, it hasn’t happened yet, and it’ll be originally prepared for Satan and the demons. The idea of humans having immortal souls comes from greek philosophy and is not Biblical. Any humans that go to hell (the lake of fire) will die (I’m not quite sure about the Demons, I’ll have to do more research). Heaven isn’t just about living forever, it’s also about being with God forever, and if you want to be with Him forever, why wouldn’t you eant to be with Him now? I think the lake of fire (I’m calling it that because the word “hell” has a lot of unhelpful connotations to it) might just be the absence of God. Keep in mind that this is from Revelation which uses a lot of metaphors and prophetic imagery.
That’s not what He said: He said that He needs to be at the centre of our lives. That certainly doesn’t mean that we can’t have good relationships with others, both believers and non-believers. "We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20).
He didn’t say that non-believers and believers should hate each other, He said that His teaching would be controversal and decisive-- “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34 ). Of course He will bring peace when He returns and His teachings encourage peace (although it isn’t presented as being the most important thing), but throughout history His teachings have been very controversal.
I’m not quite sure which verses you’re talking about here, but I can think of two: Matthew 10:35-36 and Luke 14:26. The first one is the continuation of when He says that He came to bring a sword and He is still talking about how His teachings would ve controversial and decisive. In the second one He doesn’t mean to literally hate, He means it comparitively. He’s talking again about how He should be at the centre of our lives and our most important thing.
I talked about this in my response to the bit about tolerance
I don’t remember reading about this. Could you tell me where it’s found?
Most of what you’re saying don’t contradict progressivism.
The things that do, I would say from the other reply to you are pretty controversial interpretations or contexts, or downright so mis-explained by you that people aren’t able to guess what verses you mean.
I’m not a Christian, but I’m not going to bury my head from seeing how progressive their namesake was.
How do you unify the absolute obedience to God with a secular society? How do you unify strict adherence to all the commandments with a secular government? How do you unify god ordained leadership with democracy?
Very well. Show me what verse I am wrong about and the correct understanding. Then explain how you determined that and how you determines that Christian leaders and thinkers have been so wrong for so long about the meaning of these passages?
Which is why he spoke out in support of the LGBT, religious tolerance, and against slavery? Oh wait, he didn’t.
Render unto Caesar? Jesus’ preaching seems clearly to favor things like welfare and social sharing over blasphemy laws. He directly broke the religious mandates of his people in favor of helping those in need.
Part of my objection is that many of us couldn’t even figure out what verses you meant. Name a verse that clearly shows Jesus must support the political Right and then we can discuss it.
It might surprise you, but Jesus didn’t live in 20th Century America. With that in mind:
LGBT - This is literally why I argue that Christians inject anti-gay rhetoric. He DIDN’T speak out about how to treat gay people in an empire where homosexuality was largely tolerated. Short of him turning to the camera and starting to comment on video games, one wouldn’t expect him to talk about gay rights, or abortion, or any 20th century comedy.
While he tried to convert pagans, he was accepting of them in a smaller region where they were largely outcasts. Pagan influences are a large part of why Christianity doesn’t look like Judaism-plus-plus. The Jewish people were ruled by a pagan empire, and yet again we have no speech against it.
In this one you might have a point. But I think you’re stretching if looking at it as an outsider. Through all the books of progressive teaching, focusing on the fact he fails to take the time to condemn slavery seems like you’re showing your hand if it’s your reason for rejecting his general progressivism.
Unlike Christians, I don’t think Jesus was perfect. I’m convinced if he were alive running for office, he’d be Far Left.
It meant both. It was a clever pun. At least according to some understanding. Doesn’t matter the sentence only makes sense if the gate is small.
There’s no evidence to support this. It’s an elaborate bit of apologia that rich Christians use to try to dodge the fact they shouldn’t be rich. The copium is so strong that people will dig up pictures of specific gates (from centuries later) to try to back it up.
I always heard it in the context of trivia, like the eye of the needle was a really small gate used to allow pedestrian access to the city while allowing a wall to still keep out armies. A camel still wouldn’t fit by design, so I guess I’ve never heard it in the context of apologetics of rich people, or maybe I assumed the people I was talking to were being good-faith.
This one takes a bit of cultural context, I have a book at home that has a good section on this but I’m traveling now so I’ll type this part when I get home. But the gist of it is that don’t just ‘put up’ with it, but be kind to them. Fight violence and oppresion with kindness. draw attention to them. Force them to treat you (even if just to fight you) as an equal. Like it says in Proverbs 25:21-22, “If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.”
yep, that’s what He meant: “Love your enemies, pray for those who curse you”. I think this ties in a bit with the cheek turning.
This is what He said just before the bit about the camel going through the needle eye. A man came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and the man said that He’d done that all his life. Then Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”. The man then walked away sadly because he had a lot of stuff and Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God.
yeah He meant that it would be easier for a camel (like the animal, camelus, this one) to ge through the eye of a needle (like the hole in the end of the sewing tool, the bit in the top right corner of the main picture of this article). Also lol for Supply Side Jesus.
Same here, but with God’s help I come to Him, He pulls me closer, and I become more like Him. And when I fall (or jump) He comes and gets me and picks me up again.
I’ll have to disagree with you here, I firmly believe that Jesus is God come to earth as a human.
(sorry it took me ages to reply, I’ve been busy and I wanted to sit down and think about this reply)
Which English translation do you prefer and recommend? I like NET because of it’s less-rights reserved copyright, but for ease of understanding I prefer translations that use contemporary language instead of just footnotes.
I think this characterization of turning the other cheek is more complete and supported by the nearby text, even for someone like me who prefers Jefferson’s eliding.
Re: “do not resist”, are there other nearby passages that expand it to more than just refraining from violence, into actually resisting evil persons? I ethically agree with your expanded position of trying to overcome injustice in this world - but doesn’t the quotes of Jesus in the canonical books rely instead on waiting for justice in heaven and hell, and not on Earth?
I normally use the KJV (I’m used to it) but in this thread I’ve mostly been quoting the NIV.
(I’m assuming that you mean “do not resist” as in Matthew 5:39)
So the full text of Matthew 5:39 is
In this verse Jesus is talking about vengeance and how we should react to mistreatment. I believe that the first part of “do not resist an evil person” refers to violent resistance. The second part of “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also” is a bit more complicated.
So in the culture of the time/place, the right hand was typically associated with things like honour and authority, and a backhand slap on the left cheek with the right hand was considered to be insulting to the slappee and a sign that the slapper considered the slappee to be inferior. By turning their right cheek to them, the slappee gives the slapper three choices:
Break social taboo
If the slapper were to deliver another backhand slap with their left hand, they would go against social norms and could potentially undermine their authority.
Fight as equals
If the slapper were to deliver a fronthand slap or a punch with their right hand, they would no longer be treating the slappee as inferior but would instead be fighting as equals.
Give up
If the slapper were to give up and leave the slappee alone, then the slapper would no longer be in authority and the slappee would win.
I’m pretty sure He says things like that but I can’t think of any specific verses.
(sorry it took a while for me to answer, your reply didn’t show up on my app for some reason)