LovesAGoodPigRoast [none/use name]

100 percent man. Thanks for the conversation. I have a much better outlook of this site. Probably not the best choice to jump into for my first thread lol.

You’re describing patsocs in the 20th century not class reductionist, so I don’t believe those historical examples mean those beliefs have the same outcome. If they were solely basing policy on class, black workers would have been admitted solely on the merits of being working class. I think that’s where we disagree.

I would say any historical context of exclusion based on race is the exact opposite of a class reductionist because they reduced their beliefs upon a racial identity first. Unless I’m unaware of the party in your example explicitly stating they were class reductionist, I don’t believe those to be same thing. The only reason why, even as a black person, I have this line of thinking is because I’ve seen how effective these so called “concessions” have been to my community. They haven’t. Being politically emancipated within this bourgeois, capitalist electorate hasn’t done much more than made us feel betrayed, and angry. And I believe race, sex, gender, etc are such weak positions to argue leftism from. I know more and more black people (mostly men) supporting right wing ideology and something close to 40 percent of women (albeit within in the American context) vote for the further right wing party. That is what I hope people understand. Being apart of a marginalized group doesn’t mean you’re naturally apart of a centralized group, with any sort of political consensus. This is not the same thing as saying “the black situation is unimportant or doesnt need to talked about”, it’s saying “not all black people are or ever will be leftists/comrades so stop addressing the issue as if we are all political monolith”.

I mean I’ve learned a lot already and everyone here is so nice it was hard to believe. Thanks for all of information.

So why do people equate patsoc with class reduction? Tell me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like patsocs are using socialist ideology/esthetic to rally around some sort of nationality/ethnicity/race, wouldn’t a class reductionist be the opposite of that?

Imma keep it real with it you man, the vibe I get from some people here is that none of us should be set free unless we’re all in the house first. I know that’s not the best way of saying it or even if it’s true. If this comment is out of bounds go ahead and remove it, but I hope to stick around and learn.

So I looked this up and from what I saw, they label the CCP this. Is that just western propaganda or is that kinda true?

To elaborate on this, I think ideologically your ideas of intersectionaility will become challenged under worsened material conditions, let alone violence. I think intersectionaility is sign of a privileged society that has worked passed the needs of survival. I mean using slavery in the US as an example, abolitionists weren’t necessarily concerned about Mexican independence. Not that, that wasnt important, it just wasn’t needed for survival, in that moment. I do agree that we are not at a point of survival and for the record I heavily support intersectionaility and liberation for all oppressed peoples. So I do agree with you that this space needs to be inclusionary. I’m looking to learn as much about the groups here too.

I’m of course speaking of a hypothetical that doesn’t apply. My opinion is that I have a duty to my fellow humanity to abolish capitalism before a duty to my identity.

Please don’t hate me for saying this, I’m new here so feel free to educate me on your perspective.

Thanks for that. I’ll look into what a patsoc is. Are they bad for just being assholes or is it more of an ideological issue?

Oh… I’m sorry too. I think this is my fault for not articulating myself well, so please don’t apologize. After re-reading what I typed, it was more confrontational than I intended. Maybe I’m too used to reddit (I’m told you guys call it storefront. That’s awesome and so well deserved) so I haven’t gotten used to these good faith conversations. Sorry again .

I’m not saying I did. It’s an opinion that black people have nonetheless. Many people I know care about the economic/modern day enslavement conditions much more than the political empowerment in a capitalistic society. As you are seeing, a black identity doesn’t mean a monolithic one and I’m saying an identity like ours may not create as strong solidarity as you think. Don’t forget, you don’t speak for the rest of us either.

Yes, did you not read the rest? I’d rather a white socialist than a lip service white lib lol. Was this a gotcha? I’ll just stick to my irl black armed self defense group (that also has white people in it) because this place is just too weird. I was recommended it as an alternative to reddit but it doesn’t seem much different.

Wtf you can get comments removed for being “too class reductionist” as a racial minority on this site? I guess my opinion as a black person that wants workers solidarity and because im not a black nationalists doesn’t fit with the narratives of the mods here. Lame site. I’m out.

Removed by mod

As a black man, focusing on my individual oppression doesn’t seem to be productive when speaking to the wider leftist community as we are all here to seek the liberation of wage slavery through the emancipation of labor ownership. I don’t see the point in seeing your identity as a woman as forefront of your leftist beliefs in the same way I don’t see my identity as a black man. I’d rather a cis white male see me as a comrade than acknowledge the black struggle in the US. The latter is what we just call the white liberal and only cares about my precieved status socially. Personally, I think the inability to put one’s individualism aside for the sake of solidarity (not comprising beliefs but just not hyper focusing on them) is just a reductionist to the group you belong to, like a race or feminist reductionist. Only collectives with a strong centralized identity are able to have revolutions. A bunch of groups with a common goal that will betray each other the moment they think that others are antagonistic is called the Spanish Civil War.