Couldn’t agree more. Parenting failures are the root of so much (though being charitable, there are many parents in working conditions that basically destroy their ability to parent effectively). Regardless of parents, any kid is shaped (raised) in big ways by the communities they participate in. I’ve got no problem telling a little knucklehead - even one I’ve never met - to quit mistreating folks in various ways when I see it. And I wish more people would too.

But I also recognize that has the potential to really blow up (even violently) depending on the kid’s parents and the scenario. But still, many of us just recoil from even the idea of a disagreement, and that’s the mechanism that allows this stuff to fester in our youth. Take responsibility for your society, be mean to a kid who needs it today!

Gross.

First I’m hearing of a King of the Hill remake. Nothing is sacred :(

I’m advocating for a mixed approach that serves more kids, and arguing that you had such a mixed approach yourself but don’t seem to acknowledge it.

Memorization (done properly, that is - I invoked “spaced repetition”, an evidence-based learning technique from the field of education, you’re the one talking about corporal punishment from nuns) is effective in precisely this and related domains having tons of minutiae.

It’s not that learning the process is inefficient, that’s not what I meant - learning only the process and not focusing on rote memorization as well leaves you with only the process to rely on when learning further math (your experience sounds like you got both, regarding multiplication).

Relying on only rules/processes to complete intermediate steps that are not the subject under instruction is what is inefficient. Using rules to reach simple multiplication facts when trying to learn algebra or even just long division is brutal for kids with any attention difficulty whatsoever. By the time they’ve solved the multiplication answer they wanted, they’ve lost the thread on the new concept. Rote memorization reduces the effort needed to use multiplication when learning everything else. It doesn’t feel that you’re reading very carefully here, but it could be me who failed to make myself plain.

I myself am a process guy and high on pattern-seeking. I write software for a living and live in abstractions layered on abstractions - even the physics is invisible lol, nothing (but fans and I guess HDD heads where still used) ever moves. It all feels like pretend!

My point is that understanding processes and relationships in the space of numbers can arise FROM being forced to learn many small truths over and over. A student can identify patterns (the shortcuts) from just learning the facts. Similarly you can get to the facts if you understand the process - like most math there’s a lovely symmetry there that you seem unwilling to agree with me about. They both inform and train the brain differently and you seem to have benefitted from that yourself.

We need both, and rote memorization is especially useful in a small number of domains, irreplaceable. Anyone who has gone through an Anatomy & Physiology class successfully will agree too, and I can give more examples. There’s no “process” or rules involved.

Anyway, I think we’re mostly talking past each other and probably mostly agree.

You’re a real one!

I don’t mean to be picking fights with you but this is a topic I care about - I really think it’s a mistake to say “I was exposed to this material much earlier and therefore picked it up faster and more robustly” and then claim that’s an argument against rote memorization. Especially considering how few kids are keeping up in math. Your experience was very fortunate and largely uncommon.

The rules and shortcuts you’re describing are absolutely part of the work I’m doing with my daughter, but they go hand-in-hand with the “spaced repetition” (ish) approach we’re focusing on, of just iterating a lot. One without the other is much weaker - mnemonics are extremely valuable aids, but none of it sticks without repetition. I’d say that all tasks involving remembering lots of minutiae (contrasted with remembering processes) greatly benefit from mnemonics, but fully require rote memorization practice in order to have the dexterity needed for quick recall that doesn’t get in the way. So things like chemistry, anatomy, case law.

It’s true that multiplication can be kept strictly a “learn the process” task, but your other points kind of just say that the repetition that comes in a person’s life later on finishes that work / replaces the dedicated memorization phase. And frankly the process you went through sounds like it involved a standard amount of repetition, you just had a head start so it didn’t feel as new or as uncomfortable.

I say only learning the processes is extremely inefficient and will make learning any more advanced math much, much harder. Lacking that strong basis of recall, kids have to think to do the multiplication that is merely an intermediate step and not at all part of the material being learned, moving forward. This reduces (greatly) their ability to engage with the actual subject matter because they are already working to complete the intermediate steps. I’ve seen it happen firsthand - I think you mean well, but I think your POV on multiplication is way wrong and actually harmful here.

E: I’m conflating mnemonics with arithmetic shortcuts here, I hope you’ll forgive that. They’re related - remembering one arithmetic shortcut gives you access to many answers, and usually mnemonics serve a similar “get lots of stuff for one significant remembered thing” kind of role.

Completely agree with you. But hilariously, 9 stacks of 6 bricks only accounts for 54 of them…please don’t change it lmao

I take your point but multiplication is a really bad example. It’s one of the few things in life where really doing the rote memorization well, once, pays off lifelong. It can be argued “doesn’t pay off lifelong for everyone!”, and I mean, strictly speaking that’s true.

But not learning multiplication properly is basically a death sentence for keeping up with later math classes, which is exactly what convinces a kid they are “bad at math” and shouldn’t pursue entire areas of the working world, generally very rewarding areas, too.

My daughter is not naturally strong at math and I am naturally not authoritarian, but this is one case where being forced to do the work properly one good time (as in learn it truly well, once) is too valuable to let slip.

FWIW (and I recognize that few will read this other than you, thread is quiet and getting oldish) -

I think you’re exactly right. The left in the US utterly fails - not only to reach, but even to understand - rural folks. I count myself among that group, though I’m deliberately tryna get better (I have a quarter of a local cow in my freezer, as one instance of that - better in so, so many ways than factory farmed meat, and the flavor part of that is lowest on my list of improvements).

And this failure is so thoroughly damaging to everyone’s interests in the US, and it makes me increasingly angry over time. The alienation it produces in folks like you is exactly the mechanism that allows for the current administration, by my measure. Republicans lie constantly (and I know many of y’all know it!) but they at least pretend to take your concerns seriously. The Democrats (yes, for anyone else reading, I well understand the difference between them and anything actually politically left) just shower y’all with disdain - if you’re ever even mentioned as remotely important.

The rural folks in this country understand very well that their concerns are actually critical to an even minimally-functioning society. If only anyone else did too. Such a stupid, shameful way for us all to behave. Y’all are backed into a corner like the rest of us, but differently, and all you get is lies from one party and outright vocal disdain from the other. With zero true sympathy anywhere, except from your own. Shameful!

Jesus FUCKING Tapdancing Christ. I guess IT showed us clowns can be monstrous, but what the fuck.

Yep this has been my experience as well. I’d add to that list - a power outage in the middle of a session. None of the staff knew what to do. Big open building full of stations, all active, all down mid process.

After the confusion died down and the staff had been told what to do, they were offering to continue or at least put the partially-centrifuged blood back. I said no thank you for the possible embolism and dipped. I’m an engineer. I know those machines are engineered very well, but I also know the limits of engineering and edge case testing.

Add to that 2 or 3 incidents years later where they wrapped my arm so poorly afterwards that I started bleeding everywhere after a few. One of those being a time I specifically asked them to be careful because that exact person fucked it up last time.

I don’t strictly need it these days so I’ve stopped. But yep, just yet more indignity and danger for the poor, go USA!