I took a few days to reply because honestly it is exhausting.
You know, when some people online call you Russian Bot, it does make you wonder if any of you will ever see through the Dems propaganda. But there is also the possibility that I am the one talking to bots.

I do believe that, at the end, time will prove me right. After all they do say that “A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war” .

That said, I’m probably going to respond a little to this one because it is honestly the most brain-worms comment I might have ever read.

Walz supports Israel making a preemptive strike on Iran, not the US.

There is no material difference between Israel striking Iran with the backing of the US and the US doing it directly. Israel fights with US-made weapons and with full US approval.
And by the way, the current government is actually sending troops to Israel to operate defensive weapons, this lets Israel focus on attacking border countries and commit Genocide. The majority of Americans oppose this btw, so obviously a few day before the vote, the Dems decided to increase how many soldiers are deployed there.
Also it does not matter that there are no US troops in the contested territory, the Israeli army acts as part of the US army.
All of this is already happening under the supervision and approval of Kamala Harris.

It really makes you wonder if the Democratic Party even wants to win.

Except she and Biden have been pushing for peace nonstop.

Don’t make me laugh.

“Let me just make this clear: The vice president has been and will be a strong supporter of Israel as a secure democratic and Jewish state, and she will always ensure that Israel can defend itself, period. Because that’s who Kamala Harris is,”

In this article there are also a lot more parts that i could quote and would make it clear that K.Harris does not care about peace in the Middle East. After all, that’s why this happened.

And I also don’t agree with your point about having the most lethal army.
After all, the US is the only country to ever launch a nuclear bomb at another country. And they had plans to throw one at Vietnam, Korea and China as well.

I don’t think that the US should be allowed to hold any more nuclear weapons, the US government is the crazy, out-of-control political power that should not have nukes.

The idea that supporting and helping Genocide does not count as fascist is also baffling to me. A lot of people seem to wonder what they would have done if they were a German in Nazi Germany. I think this makes it very clear what you position would have been, you would not have cared, not even a little bit.

All your other points were already answered enough in the previous comment, so i won’t waste time. You are pretending not to understand, and that’s fine. Especially because a see a clear difference in effort between us, I have to provide sources for everything, you can just make up stuff on the spot, no citations, no quotes, no nothing. And I can see that your understanding of geopolitics is entirely vibe-based and your understanding of how the world works is elementary at best.

I would not be surprised to find out that you are one of the people that only reads the headlines of articles and believes in the “Horseshoe theory”. But I guess that’s very common for blue MAGAs.

Honestly you are deeply unserious.

About the first one, I guess it was actually Tim Walz that, when asked if he supported a preemptive strike on Iran, replied that Israel has a right to expand itself and that he would back Israel since it is a US ally unlike what he thinks Trump would do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMIEaiS88pI

And Tim Walz is who Kamala Harris chose as VP, so let’s not joke around and pretend Harris would have disagreed with any of this. The Democratic party was always the fascist party but with “the mask on” as opposed to the Republican Party which is “mask off”

But also, while less literally, Harris did say that (and I’m quoting an article linked below):

"Diplomacy is my preferred path to that end, but ALL OPTIONS are on the table,” she added.

Harris, the Democratic presidential nominee, also lambasted her opponent, Republican nominee and former US President Donald Trump, arguing that he was not tough enough toward the Iranian threat.

“I am clear-eyed. Iran is a destabilizing and dangerous force,” Harris said. “When Donald Trump was president, he let Iran off the hook. After Iran and its proxies attacked US bases and American troops, Trump did nothing. And he pulled out of the nuclear deal without any plan, leading to an unconstrained Iranian nuclear program.”

“On the other hand, our administration struck Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria when they attacked American troops, and we are the first administration to ever directly defend Israel">

https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/10/11/kamala-harris-vows-do-whatever-necessary-prevent-iran-acquiring-nuclear-weapons/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/harris-to-jewish-voters-all-options-on-the-table-to-stop-iran-from-going-nuclear/

At the end of the part I quoted from the article she is literally celebrating about having strikes Iranian proxies already. Let’s remember that Israel striked an Iranian embassy, which is considered an act of war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_airstrike_on_the_Iranian_consulate_in_Damascus

But kamala Harris has supported, is supporting and would have supported all of this, because she sees Israel as an important proxy of the US in the middle east. And the white house uses Israel to project it’s power against the Arabs countries and destabilize them. This is why she was never going to end the Genocide in Palestine.

Also, your only excuse for the fact that she wanted the “most lethal army in the world”, is that the previous Dems also wanted this ( like obviously, she is from the same party as them, what I’m saying is that that is actively bad and should be a red line, an army should only be defensive, this is not what she was implying if you go back and listen to the DNC speech) and Republicans as well. Again, supporting 100% Hitler because another candidate is 101% Hitler is not that great of a talking point like you think it is. Actually on this particular issue both candidates are the same level of “Hitlerite”. That’s the party you support, and because you support it, you completely oppose the development of any 3rd party that would not have this crazy warmongering policy.

To end for now my reply, a candidate that supports the foreign nuclear weapons policy the US followed in the past decades is actually a huge negative because the world has never been more tense (as you seem to notice as well in your comment). That policy is getting us closer to nuclear war and you think it’s good that Kamala Harris wanted to follow it !? Again, she is just being the fascist with the mask on, instead of being mask off like Trump.

And just to remember you, I do not support Donald Trump, I never did and never will.

If voting for a party (and maybe even telling others to vote for them) is not supporting their current action (especially when the candidate that is running is currently in power) than I don’t know what your definition of “support” is.

I mean, you joined in on people having a discussion/debate on why Kamala lost, said some of the points are not valid and then refused to explain which point or why.

I guess you do you but we are still left wondering what could possibly be wrong about the original message for you.

Which of the points do you feel are not correct ?

Could you elaborate on it ? Otherwise I can’t really motivate and explain them.

Neither Kamala Harris nor Trump should ever have access to nuclear codes !

Let’s remember K.H. literally said she wanted to start a new war with Iran and that she wanted the “most lethal army in the world”.

You fell for the Dems propaganda so hard you literally can’t see how both of the main runners for the elections were crazy far right candidates. There is no substantial distinction in foreign policy between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump so neither of them should have access to nukes, not voting for any of the two parties is the only logical conclusion.

The only reason why the good 3rd party candidates are not electable is because of people like you that will blindly follow the Dems on their descent into fascism. The US does not need two Republican Parties, so stop supporting and justifying the second one. Go out and start building support for an actually good party, that’s the only way to save the country from fascism. Not voting for the Democrats.

Some extracts from a great comment from another user on lemmy (readfanon). I’ll paste this here since some people seem to think that the Democrats did nothing wrong and it is the “left” voters who failed them :

1-You are chasing the DNC to the right and one day you will wake up and wonder to yourself “How did I end up all the way over here?” I’m not following you into that marsh but you’re welcome to go into it yourself, just don’t get upset at me when I point out what you’re heading into and don’t get angry when I refuse to blindly follow you.

2-Historically, fascism has never been stopped at the ballot box. You being convinced that this is possible does not sway my opinion on any matter aside from my estimation of your political awareness and your ability to achieve change.

3-You had four years (eight+ if you count Trump’s regime and the lead-up to it in this calculation) to “stop fascism”. What did you do in this period of time? Did you push Biden and Kamala to adopt policies which have mass support? Did you do anything except go to back to brunch?

4-You aren’t entitled to others’ votes. Stop pretending that you are.

5-We aren’t splitting the so-called left, Kamala Harris did that all by herself.

6-You have no red lines. There is nothing that could make you not support Kamala Harris and we know it. Telling people to drop their standards and ignore their conscience to vote for Kamala is a fatal strategy and you killed her campaign by deploying it.

7-Almost all of your arguments for voting for Kamala Harris (aside from the “it will stop Trump” argument which, in retrospect, appears to be a dismal failure) also apply to reasons for voting for Trump. “You can push them left”, “By voting we will get a seat at the table”, “Voting third party or not voting at all is a wasted vote”, “We have to vote this way to protect the country”, “Politics is about comprise - you cannot expect them to be your perfect political candidate”, and whatever hold-your-nose-and-vote arguments you trot out. Did you ever stop to ask yourself why it is that you do not find these arguments for voting Trump to be convincing?

8-Last time Trump got elected you were brutally vindictive. You took glee in the thought of people in red states and marginalised groups suffering due to policy and things like natural disasters, regardless of their politics or how they chose to vote. You were excited to tell these people that they were going to get deported and put into concentration camps. You will do it again this time too because you have learned nothing. November came and these people you targeted with your vicious schadenfreude remembered. They aren’t going to forget how effortlessly you abandoned them and how you wished the worst suffering and ill-fate upon them.

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Oopsie, when writing my comment I deleted my first attempt as I was going on and on forever and decided I was just gonna copy paste what I found previously. It looks like after deleting the draft I clicked reply on your comment by accident instead of whathever I wanted to reply to. The human body was not made for mobile devices and tiny touch buttons.

Thank you for letting me notice this, I’ll see if I find the other comment I wanted to reply to.

Why would anyone vote for the Democratic Party ?

Like sure, you need to be racist and almost a Nazi to vote for the Republican Party but what did the Democrats bring to the table ?

Nothing, Kamala was campaigning on nothing because she told everyone she was going to be like Biden. By looking at polls you will we that people are feeling economically worse off right now that 4 years ago. Biden did this, the Democrats did this, if they wanted to win they would have run a different candidate (or actually done the primaries) that would become a symbol for change.

But instead they just decided, undemocratically, to run the VP, the one person other than Biden that is responsible for the policies of the last 4 years. And then Kamala H. even said to people at rallies that she was going to be like Biden !? Thats crazy, it really makes you wander if the Democratic Party even cares about winning or if they are just controlled opposition at this point. After what they did to Bernie Sanders twice, I think we all know has things really are.

Also let’s remember that Harris also decided that she would campaign in favor of Genocide ! How crazy is that, the party supposedly on the left was already completely supporting Israel and they said they were going to be supporting them.

But unlike the Republicans, K. Harris would also say some empty words about how bad killing Palestinians was. Then she would obviously reassure everyone that she still wanted to support Israel until the end, because she can’t risk people confusing her for an actual leftist.

After all they were trying to convince this inexistent moderate suburban white republican that actually wants to vote Dems. And for that they abandoned their whole base.

Trump is going to be worse ? Yes, for sure. Did Kamala Harris offer any alternative, anything at all to convince people to go out and vote ? Did she actually convince people she would be more than just slightly less evil ? No, she did not.

Also if you go back and listen to her plans for immigration and the border, there is literally no difference from how she talks and how a Republican talks.

That’s why she lost. She didn’t care about the Democratic voters, and for this reason they didn’t show up. It is up to the political party to convince people of their policy. Democracy dies when you can’t vote for what’s important to you, because at that point, why even vote ? The politicians don’t care about you anyway.

Blaming voters is wrong, it is the fault of the Democratic Party and it deserve to loose every election until the reallign with their voters. Until they propose to them popular policies and show interest in their support.

Maybe the Democratic party should have been better st convincing these people that didn’t vote, instead of alienating them on both the economy and foreign policy.

But sure, go out and scream at people for not supporting Genocide and for feeling worse off financially after Biden. I’m sure that will convince a lot of people to vote for your party at the next election.

The US is really the only country where, the more people despise the party that they vote for, theore they are told they are protecting “democracy” and “freedom”. Freedom and democracy for who ? Clearly not for the average person that felt completely left out by the only 2 electable parties.

And Bernie endorsing whatever ghoul the Democratic party chooses did not work in 2016, worked in 2020 mostly because of Covid, and again did not work in 2024.

He really has no spine to keep following wathever he is told to do by the party. I guess you don’t get that close to power as a Democrat if you actually want to fight for a better future. You can only say that you want to and then stop short of actually doing anything.

Liberals love to say that they just need a different voting system to fix every issue in the US.

And then fail to tell people how to get this new system when the two main parties don’t want it. Because obviously the Democrats and the Republicans don’t want to change it, it goes to their advantage.

You are deeply unserious.

You defense of Harris for not being like Biden, when she explicitly said she supports Biden policies, must be a bad joke, because it is not funny.

Also saying that the Democratic party supports the working class, while they are refusing to update the minimum wage, helped break some strikes and keep financing the military, like never before in history, instead of doing any sort of welfare, must be a belief born out of pure fantasy.

Since I’m tired of responding to comments, I found a great video published today on why Kamala lost, it focuses a lot on the economics and the messaging of the Democratic Party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSBi0m5xCJs

He shows a lot of main stream sources in the video so that shouldn’t be an issue for you.

You solution to people not voting is not to appeal more to those people but to force them ? lol

That would not move anything to the left. Democrats would feel free to go as right as they want knowing that the are the only big party that is not the Republicans.

I can already see it, they would spend sooooo much money to make any actual left party unable to compete, then they would shift as much to the right as possible, and then loose.

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Edit: looks like I replied under the wrong comment. Sorry about that. :)

23. I don’t care about the US. America must die and if Trump is to be its undertaker then I am relieved to hear it. What you have done is to accelerate the destruction of the US. If I were cynical about achieving my political objectives, wouldn’t have said any of the above. If I was an accelerationist I would have been pushing for all of the things that you’ve been pushing for instead of pushing back against them. I would have even gone so far as to furnish your side with more poisoned chalice arguments (I do this with the far right, I exactly know how to do it). Instead I’ve been defending your political project against your own excesses and self-defeating narrow mindedness. You are right in the fact that I am your enemy but you are wrong to oppose me because you are a far greater enemy to yourself than I could ever have the stomach to be. You won’t listen to a word of what I’ve said because you refuse to learn and to reflect.

24. A cynical person might argue that my strategy is to oppose you in the knowledge that this will make you react by becoming more deeply entrenched in your position, encouraging a sort of siege mentality in you, so that you see any criticism or difference of opinion as being an existential political threat that must be eradicated as a means to create more disaffected people to radicalise out of bourgeois democracy. This is not my intent. If things improve for the proles and the marginalised because of what I argue for then that’s a win for my political objectives. However I can’t control your actions and if you choose to respond by taking a hatchet to your precious liberal democracy then, likewise, that’s a win for my political objectives. Which way, western man?

If you want to read an interesting comment written by another user that answers some of your positions, I’ll copy-paste it here:

1. The DNC learned nothing from 2016. It is the definition of irrationality to do the same thing twice and expect different outcomes.

2. Bernie could garner huge crowds and massive support by campaigning on the basis of policy that has mass appeal, such as universal healthcare. Kamala chose not to do this because she prioritised business as usual over stopping Trump.

3. You say “things will get worse under Trump”. That’s true. But things got worse under Biden/Harris after Trump’s first term as president - environmental policy, the border camps, reproductive rights, trans rights, cop city, the genocide of Palestinians etc. So when you say “we must vote for Kamala or things will get worse” that line of reasoning is at best unconvincing and at worst it betrays the 4-year state of amnesia you have lived in because you are so politically detached from the consequences of your voting.

4. Telling people to protect democracy—the system where you vote for the candidate who best represents your political values—by voting for a person who in no way represents your political values in order to save democracy is tortured logic.

5. No, I’m not an accelerationist. Me advocating for people not to vote for Kamala Harris is not an accelerationist position because we should not be giving a mandate for a genocide, climate change, and civil rights-eroding accelerationist by voting for them.

6. How many delegates did Harris win in the last primaries? How many did she win in the primaries to get her to run for president this time? Is this what you claim as your democracy?

7. When I list a number of legitimate grievances with Kamala Harris and Joe Biden’s regime and issues with Kamala’s election platform, none of which have a single thing to do with her race or gender, and you respond by calling me racist or misogynistic it drives home how little you are willing to listen to my political concerns and how intransigent your favoured party is. When you act this way and then tell me that people have to vote for Kamala in order to push her left while you yourself are unwilling to even acknowledge the fact that Kamala’s platform has serious issues, it signals to me that there will be no shifting left on anything. I already knew this fact but you have done an exceptional job of inadvertently teaching other people this lesson.

8. When entering into negotiations with someone, it’s a uniquely terrible tactic to hand over your one state-sanctioned bargaining chip before making even one single demand.

9. You are chasing the DNC to the right and one day you will wake up and wonder to yourself “How did I end up all the way over here?” I’m not following you into that marsh but you’re welcome to go into it yourself, just don’t get upset at me when I point out what you’re heading into and don’t get angry when I refuse to blindly follow you.

10. Kamala Harris is the only thing that can stop fascism. Kamala Harris cannot do anything to protect reproductive rights, trans rights, Palestinian lives, the lives of Marcellus Williams and Robert Robertson etc. because she is powerless to do anything about it 🫠

11. Kamala Harris said she would “follow the law” regarding trans people. She was angling to become the primary lawmaker in the US. Not only does this show a lack of whatever libs care about like “leadership” but it shows how cowardly and detestable she is because she understands the law and she is willing to follow it but not when it comes to things like international law, only when it’s laws that she can use to hide behind while trans people are subjected to further oppression through legislation that strips them of rights.

12. Historically, fascism has never been stopped at the ballot box. You being convinced that this is possible does not sway my opinion on any matter aside from my estimation of your political awareness and your ability to achieve change.

13. You had four years (eight+ if you count Trump’s regime and the lead-up to it in this calculation) to “stop fascism”. What did you do in this period of time? Did you push Biden and Kamala to adopt policies which have mass support? Did you do anything except go to back to brunch?

14. When you accuse me of not organising irl, when you say that I’m not doing anything:

• I’m not about to dox myself

• I’m not going to make a laundry list of the things that I have done w/organising and activism just to impress (?) you, especially not when you’ve already told me that I haven’t done anything

• It’s a huge self-report and it’s obvious that you’re projecting

• You alienate others by telling them “I do not recognise your efforts and everything that you have done is unimportant in my estimation”

15. You aren’t entitled to others’ votes. Stop pretending that you are.

16. We aren’t splitting the so-called left, Kamala Harris did that all by herself.

17. You have no red lines. There is nothing that could make you not support Kamala Harris and we know it. Telling people to drop their standards and ignore their conscience to vote for Kamala is a fatal strategy and you killed her campaign by deploying it.

18. Selective invoking of people of colour to advocate for Kamala was ridiculous and disgustingly tokenistic. Yes, Angela Davis is smarter than I am. Telling me that I’m stupider than her and so I should take my political cues from her with regards to electoralism is a losing argument and it’s low-key ableist became you’re arguing that the person who lacks intelligence also has a commensurate lack of political virtue. Historically speaking, very intelligent people have had absolutely atrocious politics. Also people like Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas are almost certainly a lot smarter than I am. It would be wrong of me not to defer to their superior intellect and their politics, isn’t that right?

19. You say that democracy is going to be strangled in its crib and that fascism has come to town. You are maybe posting about this online in your echo chamber and that’s it. You do not take politics seriously, not even your own, yet you demand that I take your politics more seriously than you yourself do. There are things that I am doing right now to avert this trend in politics. There are things that I would do if fascism proper had seized power, none of which I would post about online. We are not the same. Enjoy your brunch though.

20. Almost all of your arguments for voting for Kamala Harris (aside from the “it will stop Trump” argument which, in retrospect, appears to be a dismal failure) also apply to reasons for voting for Trump. “You can push them left”, “By voting we will get a seat at the table”, “Voting third party or not voting at all is a wasted vote”, “We have to vote this way to protect the country”, “Politics is about comprise - you cannot expect them to be your perfect political candidate”, and whatever hold-your-nose-and-vote arguments you trot out. Did you ever stop to ask yourself why it is that you do not find these arguments for voting Trump to be convincing?

21. Last time Trump got elected you were brutally vindictive. You took glee in the thought of people in red states and marginalised groups suffering due to policy and things like natural disasters, regardless of their politics or how they chose to vote. You were excited to tell these people that they were going to get deported and put into concentration camps. You will do it again this time too because you have learned nothing. November came and these people you targeted with your vicious schadenfreude remembered. They aren’t going to forget how effortlessly you abandoned them and how you wished the worst suffering and ill-fate upon them.

22. You said that a non-vote or a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump. We have been shouting from the rooftops that Kamala Harris is fundamentally unwilling and incapable of stopping Trump. History vindicates this position; Trump managed to win the popular vote while Harris underperformed by millions of votes, even compared to Joe Biden. Thus your support for Kamala Harris was therefore support for Donald Trump’s presidency. Congratulations on getting the candidate which you campaigned so hard to get elected.

In other countries fascist get elected as well, it is not just a problem of the system itself ( don’t get me wrong, it is also a bad system, but it is not the only problem ), the big problem is that the Democratic party ( and a lot centrist parties in Europe as well ) are not electable.

People don’t want them, the Democrats don’t represent the average working person. It is not the fault of the people for not voting for them, the Democratic Party is not their party.

And since this centrist parties invest billions in every campaign to make every leftist party look unelectable ( and this happen with every voting system ), there is no big leftist opposition.

Obviously other countries with better electoral systems have it better than the US, but that is not where the problem starts and ends, it is just a small piece of a much bigger puzzle. After all everyone here knows what happened with Bernie, he was never going to be allowed to actually run.

The centrist parties fear the leftist ones much more than a right wing one, because they represent the same interest, the same people. That’s way they allied with old Republicans, that’s who they are the party of.

It is only the fault of the Democratic Party for loosing this election. They actually showed the people that they didn’t care about them. And probably a lot of US citizens already felt that they didn’t, so this just confirmed it for them.

Also not that many people gated for Stein or any other 3rd party candidate. They just didn’t vote, because the still believe what the Democrats told them about voting for 3rd parties never working, so they were left with nothing and just did nothing.

And you should hold Harris much more accountable for doing the genocide right now, rather than keep telling me about Trump. I know Trump wants the Genocide as well, but Kamala is already doing it, so to me that is not an alternative.

And if the Democrats don’t learn from this election, I don’t think they will win that many elections in the future. And honestly, they don’t deserve them, this is just a 100% Hitler (D) against 101% Hitler ® sort of situation.

After all, if they aim at right wing voters, why should right wing voters vote for them rather the the traditionally right wing party of the Republicans. People should really stop alienating non-voters / 3rd party voters when they are the only one that dont want to support Genocide. Really says a lot about the US.

But now I just started to rumble so I’ll end the comment here.