All those are perfectly good reasons for school uniforms in general.
And then your school implements a uniform policy that requires you to buy a blazer for $225 that your child will wear three times a year, and monogrammed socks that are 3 pairs for $45.
That’s some serious graft. But nothing to do with uniforms as a policy. My daughter’s public school has a uniform of sorts but it I just color and style based, not specific required brands
Try and have a logical discussion. Graft is the problem and a system that allows it will produce it however it is easiest to express.
A uniform is just an idea. It can be an excuse for graft, or it can just be a simple dress code with multiple competing vendors. I’m sorry your system is corrupt but many aren’t.
Public schools here are insane. It’s like £50 for one sweater. And it’s got to have the school name/ logo on it. So you can’t just go and buy a generic sweater the same colour.
And you’ve got to have at least 2, so when one is getting washed, you’d have one good to go.
There’s black shoes, not trainers, but smart shoes.
White shirts. Black pants/ skirts. Specific socks. £15 a tie, which is specifically in school colours so no going out to buy a cheap generic tie.
Then there’s the PE kit that has to be bought from the school. £20 for shorts. £20 for the polo. £10 for football socks.
Altogether when you’re done it’s around £300. Which, if you’re generally working class/ out of work, you’re fucked.
My sweaters faded after half a year, so mum had to buy more. They’d of fit me the entire time, but she had to buy new ones pretty much every 6 months because they just faded in the wash. And that was in the 00s. My mum hates buying uniform for my younger sisters, apparently it’s crazy priced.
Now schools here are doing blazers too, god knows how much they are.
@thepixelfox@Zagorath@pineapplelover@dgriffith Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, the flipside to all this is that high school kids can be incredibly judgemental when it comes to fashion. Teenaged girls especially, but boys too.
Especially in mixed-income or aspirational middle class areas, you will have parents who will pay up to buy designer labels and Nike/Adidas footwear for their little precious.
Then you have the kids whose parents have more limited means, and who wear hand-me-downs or stuff they get from Kmart or Target.
Immediately, that brings class into the classroom. It says to the working class kids that you are less than.
Having a uniform — ideally one that can be purchased from a discount department store — levels that playing field.
And yes, uniforms are authoritarian. Had you asked me 20 years ago, I’d have wholeheartedly agreed they need to be banished.
What changed my mind was talking to a former neighbour, around 10 years ago, who had been a working class kid raised by a single mum.
She’d originally went to high school at a selective entry school that didn’t have a uniform. And she constantly felt left out, and the better off kids whose parents could afford to buy them nicer clothes regularly picked on her.
She eventually changed schools to one that had a set uniform.
So school uniforms can be egalitarian — as long as they’re affordable.
Totally agree. In Australia and NZ most school uniforms are simpler, and therefore more affordable than the UK, typically just a polo style shirt and trousers, rather than blazers and ties. Also more practical.
I wouldn’t mind uniforms, if they weren’t like 3 times the price of regular clothes.
My school sweater was a blue v-neck. But it had to have the school name and logo on it. So it was £50.
If they’d just said, v-neck royal blue sweater and let people buy their own from whatever store, that’s fine. We had specific ties too, so if they just said we had to buy the ties from the school but the PE shorts/ netball skirts, football socks, polos and the school sweater should have been able to be purchased from any old store.
I agree, non-uniform days were hell for me. I was the kid of the working class parent, and the emo/ goth kid. I didn’t own anything that wasn’t fitting of my aesthetic. So I got bullied badly. So I appreciated the uniform. But the prices are the issue. And school that demand girls wear skirts and not trousers, I have a huge issue with that. If girls want to wear trousers, it shouldn’t be an issue. It makes me question whether the people implementing the rules are just sexist, or sexist and pervvy.
a few years back I started a discussion about which countries had uniforms (its not universial, and tends to be the UK and Commonwealth mostly); and a parent from USA said their school has an approved dress/colour code but not full branded uniform which is a lot better as it doesn’t tie parents to getting their clothes from a handful of places
@thepixelfox@Zagorath@pineapplelover@dgriffith@ajsadauskas As I understand it, the theory is that you have to buy the uniform from Official Supplier so that the richer kids won’t get a better-quality blue V-neck sweater or whatever. But yeah, the instant something becomes a uniform item, triple or more the price, because what you gonna do?
When you’re paying £50 for a sweater, that’s basically rich kid sweater anyway. £50 for me is basically 2 weeks of groceries if I shop wisely.
It’s just insane they think that cost is acceptable just because it has a school logo on it.
And honestly, where I’m from. There wasn’t really rich kids. There was 1 kid in a school of 750 who came from a family with money. So it makes even less sense.
@ajsadauskas@thepixelfox@Zagorath@pineapplelover@dgriffith TBH I think the culture and economic situation of the families plays a bigger role than whether or not uniforms are present. I also went to a school with uniforms, and the wealthier kids found plenty of other ways to mark their class status and segregate themselves from the poors.
If all the kids’ families have access to the same wealth there’s less opportunity for wealth segregation to occur IMO.
…Which I know sounds a bit obvious but I guess my point is leaning more towards the necessity of wealth redistribution 😅
Having a uniform — ideally one that can be purchased from a discount department store — levels that playing field.
Except it doesn’t. The rich kids just buy expensive undershirts, socks, necklaces, wallets, glasses, etc. even if they don’t they will judge each other based on their parents cars. I have been here and experienced it. All uniforms do is make a store working with the school some money.
There are also a lot of good reasons uniforms are unnecessary or even detrimental to students and families.
Creates additional stress in having to have a narrow range of clothing always clean and wearable each day
Uniforms do little to nothing to mitigate inequality, as children will always have other items to compare each other with - pencil cases, sports trainers/boots, lunchboxes, mobile phones etc.
Prices of uniforms will likely always be higher than regular clothing due to limited choice and supply, and limited utility outside of school
Workplace dress codes have become increasingly casual in recent decades, and continue to do so, making reinforcing the use of a highly restrictive uniform seem anachronistic
School uniforms create more problems than they solve.
On the other hand, an argument for uniforms would be that they remove a whole raft of problems with grey areas.
Without a uniform, you’d need to have a policy about ‘acceptable’ clothing - profanity, slogans, sun safety, workplace safety etc which would all be up to interpretation by students and an administration.
And you know that students would push the boundaries, and the ‘line’ would be constantly redrawn every week.
How short is too short on sleeves? What words are inappropriate on shirts?
Uniforms remove this - you’re either in the approved uniform, or you aren’t.
There are many reasons to have school uniforms. Growing up in a school system that does this for elementary and middle school:
it allows the wardrobe to be much more simplified so students don’t have to figure out what to wear that day.
Kids don’t have to get jealous of others for wearing fancy brand names or maybe in some bad areas they’ll do gang colors or something.
The prices are generally ok, I was never complaining at the prices.
It might reinforce dressing up professionally even if the clothes aren’t the most comfortable.
The way my school district worked it never looked for the brand names or anything, just so long as it fit the guidelines.
All those are perfectly good reasons for school uniforms in general.
And then your school implements a uniform policy that requires you to buy a blazer for $225 that your child will wear three times a year, and monogrammed socks that are 3 pairs for $45.
That’s some serious graft. But nothing to do with uniforms as a policy. My daughter’s public school has a uniform of sorts but it I just color and style based, not specific required brands
Uniforms as a policy enables the graft. It has everything to do with the policies.
Try and have a logical discussion. Graft is the problem and a system that allows it will produce it however it is easiest to express.
A uniform is just an idea. It can be an excuse for graft, or it can just be a simple dress code with multiple competing vendors. I’m sorry your system is corrupt but many aren’t.
That feels like an extreme case. I feel like this would only happen in an upper class private school.
Public schools here are insane. It’s like £50 for one sweater. And it’s got to have the school name/ logo on it. So you can’t just go and buy a generic sweater the same colour.
And you’ve got to have at least 2, so when one is getting washed, you’d have one good to go.
There’s black shoes, not trainers, but smart shoes.
White shirts. Black pants/ skirts. Specific socks. £15 a tie, which is specifically in school colours so no going out to buy a cheap generic tie.
Then there’s the PE kit that has to be bought from the school. £20 for shorts. £20 for the polo. £10 for football socks.
Altogether when you’re done it’s around £300. Which, if you’re generally working class/ out of work, you’re fucked.
My sweaters faded after half a year, so mum had to buy more. They’d of fit me the entire time, but she had to buy new ones pretty much every 6 months because they just faded in the wash. And that was in the 00s. My mum hates buying uniform for my younger sisters, apparently it’s crazy priced.
Now schools here are doing blazers too, god knows how much they are.
@thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, the flipside to all this is that high school kids can be incredibly judgemental when it comes to fashion. Teenaged girls especially, but boys too.
Especially in mixed-income or aspirational middle class areas, you will have parents who will pay up to buy designer labels and Nike/Adidas footwear for their little precious.
Then you have the kids whose parents have more limited means, and who wear hand-me-downs or stuff they get from Kmart or Target.
Immediately, that brings class into the classroom. It says to the working class kids that you are less than.
Having a uniform — ideally one that can be purchased from a discount department store — levels that playing field.
And yes, uniforms are authoritarian. Had you asked me 20 years ago, I’d have wholeheartedly agreed they need to be banished.
What changed my mind was talking to a former neighbour, around 10 years ago, who had been a working class kid raised by a single mum.
She’d originally went to high school at a selective entry school that didn’t have a uniform. And she constantly felt left out, and the better off kids whose parents could afford to buy them nicer clothes regularly picked on her.
She eventually changed schools to one that had a set uniform.
So school uniforms can be egalitarian — as long as they’re affordable.
@ajsadauskas @thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith
Totally agree. In Australia and NZ most school uniforms are simpler, and therefore more affordable than the UK, typically just a polo style shirt and trousers, rather than blazers and ties. Also more practical.
I wouldn’t mind uniforms, if they weren’t like 3 times the price of regular clothes.
My school sweater was a blue v-neck. But it had to have the school name and logo on it. So it was £50.
If they’d just said, v-neck royal blue sweater and let people buy their own from whatever store, that’s fine. We had specific ties too, so if they just said we had to buy the ties from the school but the PE shorts/ netball skirts, football socks, polos and the school sweater should have been able to be purchased from any old store.
I agree, non-uniform days were hell for me. I was the kid of the working class parent, and the emo/ goth kid. I didn’t own anything that wasn’t fitting of my aesthetic. So I got bullied badly. So I appreciated the uniform. But the prices are the issue. And school that demand girls wear skirts and not trousers, I have a huge issue with that. If girls want to wear trousers, it shouldn’t be an issue. It makes me question whether the people implementing the rules are just sexist, or sexist and pervvy.
@thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith @ajsadauskas
a few years back I started a discussion about which countries had uniforms (its not universial, and tends to be the UK and Commonwealth mostly); and a parent from USA said their school has an approved dress/colour code but not full branded uniform which is a lot better as it doesn’t tie parents to getting their clothes from a handful of places
@thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith @ajsadauskas As I understand it, the theory is that you have to buy the uniform from Official Supplier so that the richer kids won’t get a better-quality blue V-neck sweater or whatever. But yeah, the instant something becomes a uniform item, triple or more the price, because what you gonna do?
@RogerBW @thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith @ajsadauskas the school my parents sent me off to, which was not at all egalitarian, had a whole second-hand uniform resale process which seemed to work well
When you’re paying £50 for a sweater, that’s basically rich kid sweater anyway. £50 for me is basically 2 weeks of groceries if I shop wisely.
It’s just insane they think that cost is acceptable just because it has a school logo on it.
And honestly, where I’m from. There wasn’t really rich kids. There was 1 kid in a school of 750 who came from a family with money. So it makes even less sense.
@ajsadauskas @thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith TBH I think the culture and economic situation of the families plays a bigger role than whether or not uniforms are present. I also went to a school with uniforms, and the wealthier kids found plenty of other ways to mark their class status and segregate themselves from the poors.
If all the kids’ families have access to the same wealth there’s less opportunity for wealth segregation to occur IMO.
…Which I know sounds a bit obvious but I guess my point is leaning more towards the necessity of wealth redistribution 😅
Except it doesn’t. The rich kids just buy expensive undershirts, socks, necklaces, wallets, glasses, etc. even if they don’t they will judge each other based on their parents cars. I have been here and experienced it. All uniforms do is make a store working with the school some money.
@ajsadauskas @thepixelfox @Zagorath @pineapplelover @dgriffith CROWN Act. i’ve been getting sexually harassed about my hair since i was 12 years old, regardless of the uniform. what’s the bloody cost outside of the class reduction?
There are also a lot of good reasons uniforms are unnecessary or even detrimental to students and families.
School uniforms create more problems than they solve.
On the other hand, an argument for uniforms would be that they remove a whole raft of problems with grey areas.
Without a uniform, you’d need to have a policy about ‘acceptable’ clothing - profanity, slogans, sun safety, workplace safety etc which would all be up to interpretation by students and an administration.
And you know that students would push the boundaries, and the ‘line’ would be constantly redrawn every week.
How short is too short on sleeves? What words are inappropriate on shirts?
Uniforms remove this - you’re either in the approved uniform, or you aren’t.