Leftism isn’t the same as socialism, socialism is a type of leftism.
The injustice socialists fight is largely economic injustice. And you’re right, that’s social ownership of the means of production. And no, that doesn’t mean “the public” necessarily (there are lots of forms of social), just some group democratically owns the means of production, whether that’s a company or an entire country.
Please read the rest of my previous comment. This isn’t a discussion on socialism, but FOSS. They’re two very different things.
I didn’t say leftism is the same as socialism. Socialism, though, is the common factor across leftist thought. And it does entail common ownership of the means of production. Though, to be fair, you’re correct that public ownership can take different forms. One form involves the state, which I don’t agree with.
A single company being democratically operated is not socialism, it’s a co-op. Though it is operating according to socialist principles.
FOSS enables public ownership of the means of software production.
Socialism, though, is the common factor across leftist thought.
No, there are plenty of leftist ideologies that reject socialism, and instead prefer a system of checked capitalism based on a welfare state. Socialism is extreme leftism, and there’s a lot of room between it and the center.
A single company being democratically operated is not socialism, it’s a co-op
But a co-op is socialist, the workers in that company own the means of production. Socialism scales from the small to the large. It’s just a more libertarian form of socialism that’s compatible with a broader free market economy.
FOSS enables public ownership of the means of software production.
This wording I can agree with. But that doesn’t make it socialist, it just means it can be used to further socialist goals.
But it can also be used to further capitalist goals and only socialize the costs of maintenance without socializing ownership. It really depends on how it’s used.
there are plenty of leftist ideologies that reject socialism, and instead prefer a system of checked capitalism based on a welfare state
That is not leftist. That is centrist at best. Social democracy is still capitalism, and thus incompatible with leftist philosophy.
I urge you to do more research.
Also, don’t play word games. A co-op may be socialist in principle, but that is not socialism. Socialism is specifically something only a whole society can perform.
Yes, capitalism can use things made by socialists. So what?
Social democracy is still capitalism, and thus incompatible with leftist philosophy.
No, social democracy is absolutely a leftist ideology, it just asserts that socialism can be achieved gradually, using capitalism to improve things in the near-term.
Socialism is specifically something only a whole society can perform.
Sure, but a company can represent a “society” in the small. A “society” is just a group of interdependent individuals. I think a company certainly can count.
I don’t see that as “word games,” it’s simply looking at definitions we all use. Unless using dictionaries is somehow “playing word games.”
Yes, capitalism can use things made by socialists. So what?
But FOSS was not made by socialists. Stallman was arguably the creator of FOSS (at least copyleft), and AFAICT, he’s not a socialist. The core intent was to enable end-users to modify software for products they’ve bought and to share those modifications with other users, not to democratize the means of production. It has more to do with Right to Repair than social ownership of anything. In fact, it reinforces individual ownership of their IP and empowers them to share certain rights with others. There are a lot of different FOSS licenses for everything from the extremely liberal (MIT and BSD licenses) to very restrictive (AGPL and GPL v3). But none of them grant copyright to any entity other than the original author.
If FOSS was socialist, it would require FOSS projects to be democratically managed. But they explicitly make no statements to how projects should be run. But FOSS licenses absolutely do not do that, the intent has always been on ensuring the code can still be used and modified even if the original creators are no longer interested. That’s not socialism, it’s just the digital equivalent of laws that exist elsewhere to protect users’ rights to tinker with products they’ve bought. So your right to make parts for your car and share those parts with others doesn’t mean car repair is socialist, it just means you aren’t prevented from making those changes. The same goes for FOSS, your right to make changes to software you’ve received and distribute those changes doesn’t mean you have ownership of the software itself, it just means you’ve been granted certain rights.
No, social democracy is absolutely a leftist ideology, it just asserts that socialism can be achieved gradually, using capitalism to improve things in the near-term.
Again with the incorrect bullshit. That’s not social democracy. That’s democratic socialism. And even that is yet another misnomer - a red herring of controlled opposition, intended to preserve capitalism by placating the masses with bread and circuses.
Stop using capitalist propaganda to define socialism. You will only continue to embarrass yourself.
Also, pointing out that “socialism” and “socialist” are different words is not rejecting the dictionary. It’s sticking to it.
I’m done allowing you to occupy any more of my time.
That’s not social democracy. That’s democratic socialism
No, democratic socialism believes capitalism is incompatible with their core values, so they wouldn’t tolerate as much of a gradualist approach. Social democracy is the gradualist approach, though whether that ends up as socialism or stays a some form of welfare state can vary across parties and individuals. So:
democratic socialism - socialism plus democracy
social democracy - democratic welfare state, with many supporting a gradual shift toward socialism
Read
Perhaps you should do the same.
I’ve tried to be very careful with the terminology I’ve used, and tried to make it very clear where the lines are. Your comments, on the other hand, seem to conflate terminology (leftist and socialist, for example) with no attempt to point me at actual sources to indicate where I was imprecise or wrong.
Regardless, we’re going in circles at this point, so I agree, there’s not much point to further discussion. I feel I have made my points pretty clearly with examples.
Nope, democratic socialism is trying to vote your way to socialism, somehow reaching socialism through liberal democracy. Alas, socialism is opposed to liberalism. Democratic socialism is a nonsense, fictitious political platform.
Socialism is already inherently democratic - perhaps fanatically democratic. “Socialism plus democracy” is as redundant as “sandwich plus bread”.
No further reading necessary.
Educate yourself. Socialism aims to put the means of production in the hands of the public. This is literally the public pooling of resources.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Leftism isn’t the same as socialism, socialism is a type of leftism.
The injustice socialists fight is largely economic injustice. And you’re right, that’s social ownership of the means of production. And no, that doesn’t mean “the public” necessarily (there are lots of forms of social), just some group democratically owns the means of production, whether that’s a company or an entire country.
Please read the rest of my previous comment. This isn’t a discussion on socialism, but FOSS. They’re two very different things.
I didn’t say leftism is the same as socialism. Socialism, though, is the common factor across leftist thought. And it does entail common ownership of the means of production. Though, to be fair, you’re correct that public ownership can take different forms. One form involves the state, which I don’t agree with.
A single company being democratically operated is not socialism, it’s a co-op. Though it is operating according to socialist principles.
FOSS enables public ownership of the means of software production.
No, there are plenty of leftist ideologies that reject socialism, and instead prefer a system of checked capitalism based on a welfare state. Socialism is extreme leftism, and there’s a lot of room between it and the center.
But a co-op is socialist, the workers in that company own the means of production. Socialism scales from the small to the large. It’s just a more libertarian form of socialism that’s compatible with a broader free market economy.
This wording I can agree with. But that doesn’t make it socialist, it just means it can be used to further socialist goals.
But it can also be used to further capitalist goals and only socialize the costs of maintenance without socializing ownership. It really depends on how it’s used.
That is not leftist. That is centrist at best. Social democracy is still capitalism, and thus incompatible with leftist philosophy.
I urge you to do more research.
Also, don’t play word games. A co-op may be socialist in principle, but that is not socialism. Socialism is specifically something only a whole society can perform.
Yes, capitalism can use things made by socialists. So what?
No, social democracy is absolutely a leftist ideology, it just asserts that socialism can be achieved gradually, using capitalism to improve things in the near-term.
Sure, but a company can represent a “society” in the small. A “society” is just a group of interdependent individuals. I think a company certainly can count.
I don’t see that as “word games,” it’s simply looking at definitions we all use. Unless using dictionaries is somehow “playing word games.”
But FOSS was not made by socialists. Stallman was arguably the creator of FOSS (at least copyleft), and AFAICT, he’s not a socialist. The core intent was to enable end-users to modify software for products they’ve bought and to share those modifications with other users, not to democratize the means of production. It has more to do with Right to Repair than social ownership of anything. In fact, it reinforces individual ownership of their IP and empowers them to share certain rights with others. There are a lot of different FOSS licenses for everything from the extremely liberal (MIT and BSD licenses) to very restrictive (AGPL and GPL v3). But none of them grant copyright to any entity other than the original author.
If FOSS was socialist, it would require FOSS projects to be democratically managed. But they explicitly make no statements to how projects should be run. But FOSS licenses absolutely do not do that, the intent has always been on ensuring the code can still be used and modified even if the original creators are no longer interested. That’s not socialism, it’s just the digital equivalent of laws that exist elsewhere to protect users’ rights to tinker with products they’ve bought. So your right to make parts for your car and share those parts with others doesn’t mean car repair is socialist, it just means you aren’t prevented from making those changes. The same goes for FOSS, your right to make changes to software you’ve received and distribute those changes doesn’t mean you have ownership of the software itself, it just means you’ve been granted certain rights.
Again with the incorrect bullshit. That’s not social democracy. That’s democratic socialism. And even that is yet another misnomer - a red herring of controlled opposition, intended to preserve capitalism by placating the masses with bread and circuses.
Stop using capitalist propaganda to define socialism. You will only continue to embarrass yourself.
Also, pointing out that “socialism” and “socialist” are different words is not rejecting the dictionary. It’s sticking to it.
I’m done allowing you to occupy any more of my time.
Read.
No, democratic socialism believes capitalism is incompatible with their core values, so they wouldn’t tolerate as much of a gradualist approach. Social democracy is the gradualist approach, though whether that ends up as socialism or stays a some form of welfare state can vary across parties and individuals. So:
Perhaps you should do the same.
I’ve tried to be very careful with the terminology I’ve used, and tried to make it very clear where the lines are. Your comments, on the other hand, seem to conflate terminology (leftist and socialist, for example) with no attempt to point me at actual sources to indicate where I was imprecise or wrong.
Regardless, we’re going in circles at this point, so I agree, there’s not much point to further discussion. I feel I have made my points pretty clearly with examples.
Have a fantastic day. :)
Nope, democratic socialism is trying to vote your way to socialism, somehow reaching socialism through liberal democracy. Alas, socialism is opposed to liberalism. Democratic socialism is a nonsense, fictitious political platform.
Socialism is already inherently democratic - perhaps fanatically democratic. “Socialism plus democracy” is as redundant as “sandwich plus bread”.