- cross-posted to:
- politics@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- politics@sh.itjust.works
An Illinois state judge on Wednesday barred Donald Trump from appearing on the Illinois’ Republican presidential primary ballot because of his role in the attack at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, but she delayed her ruling from taking effect in light of an expected appeal by the former U.S president.
Ugh…okay…
First I’ll say I can’t stand trump and I absolutely believe he participated in insurrection and as such should be barred from holding federal office.
*With that being said…*the fact remains that he’s not yet been legally convicted/proven of having done so.
I believe it, you believe it, lots of people believe it, and it may well be fact…but there’s been no legal decision that says he participated in an insurrection.
Without that legal ruling…and I can’t believe I’m saying this…I don’t think that states should be able to strike him from national elections based on a federal level law.
It’s less a matter of how I feel about the actual subject and much more because of the legal precedent and implications. Basically, without a legal conviction here, these states are saying, “We (a nebulous definition here that could be as collective as the personally held opinions of a single judge) feel that this person did something so against the best interests of the country that it amounts to insurrection, therefore we’re removing that person from our ballots.”
And while I agree with them in this specific case, it’s not difficult to imagine that, with a precedent like this, you get purple states with a GOP judge, state supreme court, governor, etc. that decide that the Dem candidate in a future election has acted so against their view of the best interests of the nation that they decide it amounts to insurrection and therefore that candidate will be removed from their ballot.
At that point, every single election will be about attempts to remove candidates from ballots in the courts, cheapening and perverting the intentions of 14-3.
To prevent that, IMHO, it needs to be up to the federal level of courts to make such a decision, to say for certain whether a person has violated 14-3, at which point that ruling decides their appearance on a ballot automatically.
Yes, it’s unfortunate because in this case a ruling like that from a federal court is unlikely (and if it comes down, it’s unlikely to withstand SCOTUS and/or get a horribly muddying ruling like “yes he did insurrection but no, we aren’t going to enforce 14-3”) but taking the long view of rule of law and judicial precedent, I just feel that states deciding this matter without trial or conviction is opening Pandora’s box.
Cmon now, there’s a difference between “against their view” and “instigated and participated in an insurrection.”
This is like arguing that we can’t punish a murderer with jail time because people will start trying to punish people they disagree with, with jail time.
A convicted murderer, sure we can.
Someone accused of murder? Even if it’s by millions of people? Without a conviction, don’t touch them.
I agree.
But without any official legal declaration of the latter, it’s no more substantial than the former…and I’ll give you one guess as to which side of the American political system is more willing to abuse that.
I’m not saying Trump should be guaranteed to appear on ballots no matter what…I’m just saying that before he’s removed there needs to be something official. A legal finding that he did indeed participate in insurrection.
Once that’s officially and legally established, then and only then, 14-3 should be invoked.
And for what it’s worth, IMHO, at that point it should be invoked nationwide. As soon as that ruling comes down, Trump is, as a function of that ruling, prevented from appearing on any ballot for any national office, in all states, effective immediately. Any write-in votes for the ineligible candidate are also discarded.
That’s already happened. There was a finding of fact that Trump participated in insurrection by state of Colorado.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/18/1213961050/colorado-judge-finds-trump-engaged-in-insurrection-but-keeps-him-on-ballot
That’s in part why this is the case the USSC has taken up. It is now established legal fact that Trump participated in insurrection, but 14-3 isn’t super clear that it pertains to POTUS, unlike the clarity for Senators and Representatives.
So there’s no question of guilt. That’s established. It’s now a question of applicability.
My point was that I feel it should be decided at the federal level, not the state level. The ruling of a Colorado court as to what happened in an area completely outside their jurisdiction shouldn’t really matter.
The SCOTUS ruling will be that decision, and while I’m not optimistic that they’ll rule to disqualify Trump through 14-3, at least there will be an answer.
There’s still room for the USSC to also declare that the state courts finding of fact is incorrect. If I recall the legal analysis, I think that was the consensus as the likely outcome, that the state’s finding is not substantiated. There seemed to be doubt that the “doesn’t apply” argument will hold, but that will be moot if they say that the Colorado state court can’t unilaterally make that finding.
The other side of that coin is judges deliberately dragging their feet on the matter to make sure he is able to be on the ballot.
We just had the Supreme Court say “yeah, maybe he does have presidential immunity” and delay the proceedings by 90 days instead of taking it up immediately, or just refusing to hear the case.
So our choices are “ignore the insurrection and let him be on the general ballot” and “hold him accountable at the state level.”
Basically, fucked if we do, and fucked if we don’t. But at least this way they are upholding the constitution.
Problem being is that the federal system has shied away from declaring him an insurrectionist, and it’s kind of weird to proceed without the backing of a federal ruling toward the end of enforcing a federal amendment.
It’s a bit disheartening that the justice system spent 4 years with the most obvious evidence on the planet and did not proceed for fear of looking ‘too political’. But as a consequence, I think the states deciding to act on that amendment are lacking the substance to justify their move.
It’s maddening because everyone knows he worked to subvert the free and fair election (the insurrection in my mind is superseded by the whole fake electors/attempted election tampering). But the courts in a position to credibly do something directly on the issue have drug their feet too long.
States have always been the arbiters of eligibility. Taking that away would be novel and against precedent.
The threat of his base retaliating isn’t a reason not to do it. That’s just a large criminal conspiracy, just like if a cartel or gang threatened prosecutors.