Teachers will be forced to tell parents that their child is questioning their gender even if the young person objects under new guidance for schools in England, the equalities minister has indicated.
I love how people who aren’t part of the community think they know what’s best for the community. Fucking assholes, outing kids into what could be a potentially dangerous situation, depending on the parents views.
I’d love to out their deepest, most well kept secrets, see how they feel.
It’s disgusting how all these ‘protections’ they put in place will do more harm than good. You can tell it’s coming from an anti trans standpoint as they’re trying to scare people into staying hidden.
Fuck the government.
Don’t blame the government. Name the people making these decisions.
I blame them all. The idiots proposing this shit and the government agreeing it’s a good idea. They’re all morons.
My point is that “the government” isn’t some black-box machine. The government is people. You can blame “the government” all you want, but it’s the people pulling the levers who deserve the blame. They should be named.
The government is not the people.
They are meant to be public servants serving the tax payers.
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Government employees shouldn’t be keeping secrets from the people they are meant to serve.
So you think a teacher serves only the parents and not the child?
They’re serving both by educating. They aren’t serving by keeping secrets from parents.
The government forces us to send our kids to government run education centers at the threat of taking them from us. The least they can do is tell us what’s going on those 6-8 hours a day we are forced to give them our kids.
No, I think things like this that can cause a potential dangerous situation shouldn’t be told. Coming out about anything, sexually, gender identity etc is a personal choice. Taking that from someone is a form of control.
If a teacher tries any of this shit when my kiddo is in school, I’m gonna lose it with them. It’s up to my child if and when they feel comfortable telling me those things, if they ever realise they aren’t straight or aren’t the gender they were born as. It’s their right to choose to tell me this. Not someone else. Just because they’re children, doesn’t mean we have rights to know everything. Their privacy is important too. Children are people, not possessions. They deserve respect. We don’t demand someone’s boss tells their family if they find out this stuff. We don’t demand higher education teachers of over 18s to do this either. Just because their minors does not mean were entitled to know their private thoughts and feelings. Unless a child has admitted to thoughts of suicide/ harming themselves or others, I don’t believe we should be told.
If they think a child has behavioural issues that need looking into, fine. That’s good information. But outing someone, no matter their age is wrong and potentially dangerous. Luckily there’s parents out there who will be accepting if they get information like this. But unfortunately there’s parents who won’t be, and depending on what those parents are like, it could result in some seriously bad situations arising.
I know my own parent was less then impressed when she found out Im pansexual. And they tried the whole ‘but kids’ and ‘its just a phase thing.’ which isn’t as bad as some people/ children would get. But being invalidated doesn’t feel good, especially on something that isn’t an opinion, but a fact. Being told you’re wrong for your sexuality or gender identity can do a lot of damage to people.
This is stupid. It shouldn’t be a thing. I’m sick of the ‘but the children’ bullshit the government keep pushing as a cover for wanting more control. No end to end encryption, because we want to protect the children. Our children, because we want to protect the children. Access to your private messages, the children.
It’s all bullshit they use to get people on board because children are an easy pawn to use. The government’s of the world need to stop using children in pawns of their stupid games and just be honest. But how likely are people to listen if they say ‘we want more control’ over ‘we are trying to protect the children!’I’ll say it again. Fuck the government.
If a teacher tries any of this shit when my kiddo is in school, I’m gonna lose it with them. It’s up to my child if and when they feel comfortable telling me those things, if they ever realise they aren’t straight or aren’t the gender they were born as. It’s their right to choose to tell me this. Not someone else. Just because they’re children, doesn’t mean we have rights to know everything
If the kid is socially transitioning at school, I think that falls under behavior parents should know. Same if the kids are being shitheads in class or getting beat up at recess.
Weren’t you just talking about how you believe in small government and oppose authoritarianism in another post and yet here you are demanding that the government force educators to invade children’s privacy by spying on them and relaying their findings to parents?
demanding that the government force educators to invade children’s privacy by spying on them
Where did I say this? Please provide a quote of mine.
You guys will be banning books like Florida next if you don’t nip this fascist bullshit in the bud right now.
The unfortunate truth is that the majority of the people who voted really did vote for this sort of government. For the past 1.5 decades.
The current opposition is like the Biden alternative. I don’t have many hopes for them but we are at a stage where almost anything is better than this. The current government has been a clown show.
Can someone explain how/why the Brits appear to be turning into Texans?
We’ve imported the culture wars from the US.
There’s a range of anti trans lobbyists in the UK that are US funded, and our government is hoping that if you scare people about migrants and trans people for long enough, we’ll forget that it’s actually the Tory party that is destroying the country and vote them back in.
We have a very right wing cabinet, mainly due to everybody else getting kicked out/ resigning. They are very likely to get kicked out themselves next year, but due to the fixed term parliament law they are basically untouchable until then, so they are getting as much shit done as they can before they get replaced.
The smear shit on the walls before you get evicted approach to governing. You’ve been taking lessons from the US haven’t you.
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Kids being unable to trust teachers here reminds me of being unable to trust teachers to stop anti-gay bullying due to Section 28.
I gave up teaching two years after moving to the UK, it’s an absolute mess.
I can only imagine needing to fill out the “inform the parent” form and then immediately needing to fill out a safeguarding form (something you fill out any time you note anything like bruises, comments, out of sort actions, etc.). It’s absolutely tragic.
Exactly. Puts you in a position where not only are you legally required to potentially put a child in direct line of fire by ousting them, you then can’t then do jack about it until the situation turns visibly abusive.
I’ve been arguing it out with someone that safeguarding absolutely includes (or should’ve included) the right of teachers (or more so the school) to not disclose information that could potentially lead to abuse.
Teachers are usually the first non-parental authority figures kids will go to with these types of questions, and now they’re being cut off from that safe space.
Strict surveillance doesn’t raise more honest people, it raises better liars.
Ahh, more reasons for people to leave teaching.
Honestly, I think the only teachers I know that are still teachers today is because they’re under the thumb of this system - specialised training that isn’t much use elsewhere, so they have to stay and continue to work in increasingly impoverished conditions.
Any teachers reading this - I’m sorry for what you have to go through, and even as a childless individual, I am greatful for the sacrifices you’re making to ensure the future of our society.
You act like zero teachers agree with this shit…
That’s the point, run out anyone that’s not on the same “team”
If the a doesn’t want to tell his parents for whatever reason yet, it should stay this way.
Honestly sounds like something straight out of Florida or parody news websites lol.Good. Things shouldn’t be hidden from parents.
Like most things in life, it depends on the kind of people the parents are.
The ability to have unprotected sex doesn’t give anyone special powers, or make them a better person by default.
Some parents are awful.
And the non-awful parents are probably already going to know something is up anyway, or have the sort of relationship where the kid is comfortable telling them.
So this law is specifically designed to help awful parents be more awful to their trans kids.
In a perfect world, sure. Here in the real world, some parents are shitty people.
Given that there are plenty of parents who are transphobic and will in fact do irreparable damage to the children in question… no.
and will in fact do irreparable damage to the children in question
Well, yeah… that’s the whole point of the law.
Oh no no no, it’s to HELP them you see. They’re just MISGUIDED! /s
Yeah, any time someone says “for the children” or “because of terrorists / criminals” I immediately think “what fuckery are you trying to fob off on us now?”
What if they’re abusive?
They do not care, they just want to out trans kids because something something parents rights.
You do understand that there are parents who would make their children homeless (or worse) over issues of sexuality and gender right?
Is it that important to be able to snoop on every facet of your child’s life that you support turning what should’ve been a safespace for children who find themselves in the above scenario into yet another place they’re forced to hide.
Also, if you’re at the point where you’re resorting to using the law to force secrets out of your children, rather than having them trust you enough to just tell you, you should probably question your relationship with your children.
You do understand that there are parents who would make their children homeless (or worse) over issues of sexuality and gender right?
And there should be programs for these youths to help them out.
Is it that important to be able to snoop on every facet of your child’s life that you support turning what should’ve been a safespace for children who find themselves in the above scenario into yet another place they’re forced to hide.
You want government employees determining whats okay for the kids, but have parents take any repercussions. Either parents are responsible for their kids decisions, or teachers, can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Also, if you’re at the point where you’re resorting to using the law to force secrets out of your children
Therapists have an obligation for confidentiality, teachers are public servants, they should serve the tax payers.
And there should be programs for these youths to help them out.
You want government employees determining whats okay for the kids, but have parents take any repercussions. Either parents are responsible for their kids decisions, or teachers, can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Exactly how are these kids meant to find out about these programs to help them if there’s literally nobody they know that they’re allowed to disclose this information to without their parents immediately finding out about it?
You say “government employee” like as though it’s a tax collector you’re putting in charge of these kids.
At least in the UK, teachers have to undergo a lot of safe-guarding training before they’re even allowed to teach. They’re supposed to protect your child’s safety, even from you if required. That’s serving the tax-payer, and this law jeopardises their ability to do so in that scenario.
Therapists have an obligation for confidentiality, teachers are public servants, they should serve the tax payers.
Yes, because children (without the aid of parents) can afford a therapist. That’s your worst take so far.
Also, you missed the second part there where you can bypass all of this by simply fostering an environment where your child feels safe to tell you this in the first place. If your child isn’t telling you something that fundemental about themselves, it’s because they don’t feel safe to do so.
Holy shit. You’re seriously arguing that children losing access to their homes and families homeless is fine because “there are programs to help them out”!
Your interpretation of my saying that we should invest in programs to help out the homeless use, as instead me saying it’s fine is a reflection on your poor reading comprehension.
I mean I’m reading the same thing they did and it’s not that unfavourable an interpretation of what you said.
If anything this comment only doubles down on it. You’ve already assumed the kids are going to be homeless, rather than the point I was making that there are times where this law will 100% conflict with a teacher’s safe-guarding duty, yet they will be forced by law to endanger the child anyway.
f anything this comment only doubles down on it. You’ve already assumed the kids are going to be homeless,
I didn’t assume that, the person I was replying to gave me that scenario.
Gotta read the chain homie.
I am the guy you were replying when you said that “homie”
I gave you that question. It wasn’t a scenario where a child is already homeless, it was that the implications of this law would drive children in that situation into homelessness.
Your reply to that there was thrte should be programs to help them, which you elaborate to mean the homeless. You’ve told me you’re so attached to this idea that you’ve already discounted the option of withholding this information for the sake of a child’s safety and wellbeing, which tells me enough about what you think.
Dude, I’ve read a bunch of your comments at this point. I know where you stand and it’s disgusting. Don’t try to blame that on reading comprehension.
I’m pro-investing into programs to help homeless use.
If you’re against that, I don’t know what to tell you. I pray one day you will find empathy and also support increased funding to house them.
Exactly how are these kids meant to find out about these programs to help them if there’s literally nobody they know that they’re allowed to disclose this information to without their parents immediately finding out about it?
Posters, like we have in a lot of government buildings, saying ‘if you’re experiencing home insecurity, use this resource’
Fucking easy, dude. Once again, you make it seem so special that it’s the + community experiencing homelessness. It doesn’t matter, they’re people too. Straight kids experiencing homelessness and + community need the same thing - a roof over their head.
You say “government employee” like as though it’s a tax collector you’re putting in charge of these kids.
Are they not government employees?
They’re supposed to protect your child’s safety, even from you if required.
I agree with this and it’s the same in the U.S. Once again - it’s to defend against abuse by parents, whether it’s a straight cis male or a trans woman. We don’t need special rules - abuse is abuse.
Yes, because children (without the aid of parents) can afford a therapist. That’s your worst take so far.
Schools have therapists and counselors.
Also, you missed the second part there where you can bypass all of this by simply fostering an environment where your child feels safe to tell you this in the first place. If your child isn’t telling you something that fundemental about themselves, it’s because they don’t feel safe to do so.
I agree. I don’t think it’s up to government agents to self determine this situation in the family, though. If teachers suspect abuse, they’re obligated to report it.
Posters, like we have in a lot of government buildings, saying ‘if you’re experiencing home insecurity, use this resource’
Fucking easy, dude. Once again, you make it seem so special that it’s the + community experiencing homelessness. It doesn’t matter, they’re people too. Straight kids experiencing homelessness and + community need the same thing - a roof over their head.
Firstly, I made that comment before you elaborated on the idea that your “programs” referred to programs to help the homeless. Of course that kind of generalised “hone insecurity” helpline is going to be available, but why do we have to start from the idea of them getting kicked out in the first place.
As I’ve said in other comments, you are so committed to the idea that all parents must know all to such an extent that you don’t even consider the possibility that many children could be saved from homelessness simply by discretion offered by a teacher as a safeguarding agent.
You’re right that LGBT+ kids aren’t special in regards to being homeless, but this conversation right here, right now isn’t about that. You’re just pulling an “All Lives Matter” on this conversation as if that’s some epic comeback.
Are they not government employees?
They are government employees, bur acting like all government employees are exactly the same is again a really bloody stupid take.
Again, teachers are trained not just to teach, but to safeguard your children from all sorts of things.
I agree with this and it’s the same in the U.S. Once again - it’s to defend against abuse by parents, whether it’s a straight cis male or a trans woman. We don’t need special rules - abuse is abuse.
And yet by ousting a child like this to their parents by force of law, like you’re supporting, you throw that child into a potentially abusive situation that could’ve been avoided.
It’s like handing the school bully a stack full of blackmail on a student and expecting them not to abuse it.
Schools have therapists and counselors.
Therapists and Counselors that they have to be referred to by their teachers or parents, the exact people they won’t tell because they can’t trust them.
EDIT - Actually there’s one other bit I didn’t think about typing this. Not all disclosures are deliberate. A teacher could overhear this and now be obligated to bring hell down upon a child without them being aware of what’s coming, which I’d argue is even worse. No therapists or councillors are gonna help with that.
I agree. I don’t think it’s up to government agents to self determine this situation in the family, though. If teachers suspect abuse, they’re obligated to report it.
So you’d rather it get to the point of abuse before a teacher can do something about it?
It’s not even just about self-evaluation - if a child disclosed this to a teacher under the belief they would be safeguarded, the teacher would be legally obligated to say it to the parents even if that child told the teacher the exact nature of their family dynamics and the potential abuse this information could lead to.
Tell you what, it must be great living in your world of black and white where you never have to consider the downstream ramifications your broad generalisations produce.
but why do we have to start from the idea of them getting kicked out in the first place.
Because y’alls argument is always ‘these kids will instantly get abused then kicked out!’ and making that some sort of gotcha, like I’m pro-homeless youth.
As I’ve said in other comments, you are so committed to the idea that all parents must know all to such an extent that you don’t even consider the possibility that many children could be saved from homelessness simply by discretion offered by a teacher as a safeguarding agent.
And, as I’ve said, that’s outside the scope of teaching. Teachers are required by law to report abuse, outside of that they should be expected to tell parents about the behavior of their kids.
but this conversation right here, right now isn’t about that. You’re just pulling an “All Lives Matter” on this conversation as if that’s some epic comeback.
As I’ve said and you apparently can’t grasp - we have these protections for EVERYONE, why are you trying to carve out special cases for the + community? reporting suspected abuse of a gay kid is the same as reporting it for a straight kid. They’re on the same form, what do you think, the gay kid has a pink abuse form?
bur acting like all government employees are exactly the same is again a really bloody stupid take.
It doesn’t matter if they’re the same. They’re government employees, which are inherently supposed to serve the tax payers, not take their kids and have secret meetings with them.
Again, teachers are trained not just to teach, but to safeguard your children from all sorts of things.
If my kid breaks his leg biking, is it on the teachers to safeguard my kids? If my kid gets cancer, is it on the teachers to provide medical support?
Teachers have a job, and they’re pushing to be outside that scope. Teachers aren’t there to keep secrets from parents.
Therapists and Counselors that they have to be referred to by their teachers or parents, the exact people they won’t tell because they can’t trust them.
“I want a therapist” - see, don’t need to say anything about wanting to be called LaQuanda instead of Jimmy. This is really fucking basic stuff, dude. You just want an excuses to have teachers take on the role of parenting for these kids, without having the actual responsibility for them. That’s worse for educators, and parents.
So you’d rather it get to the point of abuse before a teacher can do something about it?
You can literally say that about any abuse situation. I can’t file a domestic abuse charge on my partner because I missed a bill payment and I think one day she may slap me because of it.
Tell you what, it must be great living in your world of black and white where you never have to consider the downstream ramifications your broad generalisations produce.
That’s what you’re doing. You just think anytime there’s a kid who doesn’t tell his parent something, it must be abusive. Teachers aren’t responsible for their students lives, parents are. Stop trying to make it so these government agents don’t respond to the taxpayers wants and actively fight against the people they’re supposed to serve.
Because y’alls argument is always ‘these kids will instantly get abused then kicked out!’ and making that some sort of gotcha, like I’m pro-homeless youth.
You act like that’s a purely hypotherical situation I’m popping out if my ass. There are children in this situation, where this will happen, and your solution is to render them homeless. At least in this situation, you are pro-homeless youth.
And, as I’ve said, that’s outside the scope of teaching. Teachers are required by law to report abuse, outside of that they should be expected to tell parents about the behavior of their kids.
And that’s because teachers do have a lot of duties outside the scope of teaching, including safeguarding.
And I think that’s where things differ between us. I think the school (not just the teacher) should be allowed to withhold that information if they believe it would endanger that child.
As I’ve said and you apparently can’t grasp - we have these protections for EVERYONE, why are you trying to carve out special cases for the + community? reporting suspected abuse of a gay kid is the same as reporting it for a straight kid. They’re on the same form, what do you think, the gay kid has a pink abuse form?
I’m not trying to carve out a special case for LGBT+, this law that has brought on this discussion is entirely about a law the affects specifically the T part of that community, so of course the conversation will drift that way, because that’s how conversations work.
You seem to think I’m happy letting it get to the point of abuse, when the option to not do so is there. That you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Also, in the event there was a piece of information in the same vein that potentially could introduce abuse to a straight child in the same way, I would also want the school to practice discretion about it.
It doesn’t matter if they’re the same. They’re government employees, which are inherently supposed to serve the tax payers, not take their kids and have secret meetings with them.
The safeguarding duty is serving the tax-payer. It is preventing abuse where there is reason to suspect that the disclosure of certain information could create an abusive situation.
You say “secret meetings” as though the teachers are going out shopping with them to buy opposite gendered clothes and putting them on HRT. There are much better resources than than what a teacher can and should offer, but that’s not possible if you don’t render an environment where the child has a chance to ask for them.
If my kid breaks his leg biking, is it on the teachers to safeguard my kids? If my kid gets cancer, is it on the teachers to provide medical support?
Teachers have a job, and they’re pushing to be outside that scope. Teachers aren’t there to keep secrets from parents.
In the event of a broken leg, yes, a first-aid qualified teacher would provide first-aid to the child, then let paramedics take over from there. In that situation, obviously discretion is not going to be required because it’s not a sensitive issue.
And in the event of cancer, I’d hope the parents have an active enough involvement in their child’s life that their teachers find out they’ve got cancer before they do. A teacher wouldn’t be diagnosing such, as that is outside the scope of their job.
Again, they’re their to protect your child. If that means protecting them from you, then yes, that is and should be in the scope of their job. Besides which, it isn’t them alone that would do this. It would be up the school as well, as a teacher does have the duty to report it to the school so that resources can be given.
Apparently this is too long a conversation, so I’m going to have to split this in two.
“I want a therapist” - see, don’t need to say anything about wanting to be called LaQuanda instead of Jimmy. This is really fucking basic stuff, dude. You just want an excuses to have teachers take on the role of parenting for these kids, without having the actual responsibility for them. That’s worse for educators, and parents.
If you think “I want a therapist” will get the kid a therapist with nothing else said or done, I think it’s you that’s naive. Even if it’s a school’s therapist, those resources are limited in scope, and assessment of need would be carried out.
It’s true that this would be more confidential, but I am surprised that you’re up for this considering this is another government employee quite literally having secret meetings with your child, and would still result in you not being told anything.
You can literally say that about any abuse situation. I can’t file a domestic abuse charge on my partner because I missed a bill payment and I think one day she may slap me because of it.
I think you and I both know that’s not the same, nor carries the same weight as potentially being abused and kicked out of your home due to being ousted as LGBT+.
If there is a reasonable suspicion that disclosing that information could lead to abuse, and not disclosing it wouldn’t, I’d much rather those “government employees” err on the side of not waiting until they’ve introduced a child into an abusive situation before doing something about it.
That’s what you’re doing. You just think anytime there’s a kid who doesn’t tell his parent something, it must be abusive. Teachers aren’t responsible for their students lives, parents are. Stop trying to make it so these government agents don’t respond to the taxpayers wants and actively fight against the people they’re supposed to serve.
I don’t think anytime a child doesn’t want their parent to be told something it is abusive. What I don’t want is a law that creates a situation where the above is true, and makes the situation worse.
I’m pinpointing on this as an example, because it’s a realistic scenario that points out that a universal disclosure law isn’t a good idea if you actually want to protect children, because it isn’t always the just outside world that could harm them.
They aren’t fighting against the people they’re supposed to serve. Their ability is foster the people of the future, and that includes safeguarding them from harm, including that introduced by the child’s parents.
Plus, are you forgetting that these children will one day be those very tax-payers, who may very well be thankful that their school acted in their best interest?
Parents should be aware of what is going on in their kids’ lives.
This means being a parent and actively being involved in their life. It does not mean abusing the trust that kids give to teachers, councilors, therapists and other adults they might confide in.
who said anything about therapists? Teachers are servants for the tax payers.
Therapists have a commitment to confidentiality in almost all circumstances.
Perhaps therapist was the wrong word. Many schools have health officers who act as emotional support staff that work with students.
I believe all educators have a duty to the well-being of the student ovet the parents. Students are people too, not a thing that parents own until they turn 18. They should be afforded confidentiality too.
Perhaps therapist was the wrong word. Many schools have health officers who act as emotional support staff that work with students.
If their job ethically requires a non disclosure factor, than that’s more reasonable.
But even doctors, that have privacy requirements, have to share medical information with the kids guardians.
I believe all educators have a duty to the well-being of the student ovet the parents
I think this is a difference between how you see the teacher parent relationship and how I do.
I imagine you believe teachers should be nurturers of these kids and help facilitate their growth as human beings.
I see them as government agents, that are paid (and therefore should serve) by the taxpayers. The fact that taxpayers can overwhelmingly say they want/don’t want something, and schools override them is the exact opposite of what I believe the role of public school educators should be. Responsible for teaching the basics of what we think important topics are for kids - generally math, sciences, social studies and literature.
Students are people too, not a thing that parents own until they turn 18.
If my 10 YO kid throws a rock at a window and payment is needed to replace it, who’s responsible to pay for it?
Will the law go after his teacher? Go after him? No. They go after me. I’m responsible for them, and it seems that teachers want to nurture them, but take no responsibility if there’s repercussions.
They should be afforded confidentiality too.
In everything? You don’t think there’s any scenario’s which a teacher should tell the parents what their kids are doing at school?
Hey sorry, I really wasn’t looking for a long argument here, just wanted to clarify my earlier comment.
But yes, we have different viewpoints. I have kids. I would feel responsible for the window because it’s my kid and that’s reasonable and what society expects. If my kid wanted to talk to their teacher about something in private I’m ok with that.
They obviously won’t share literally everything, but if my kids have a problem trusting me then I’m failing as a parent.
Are they not there to serve their students, or do they only serve the parents?
They’re government employees, paid by tax payers to educate their kids.
Yes, they’re the ones being served, and the government and their employees have lost sight of that.
Well, at least you’re honest about thinking children don’t deserve to have anyone in power looking out for their interests when they conflict with their parents’.
children don’t deserve to have anyone in power looking out for their interests when they conflict with their parents’.
As I’ve said plenty of times, I’m for an increase in investment in programs to help youth that have these problems.
I’m against having teachers unilaterally determining that they should keep secrets with their students over providing transparency with the parents. With the taxpayers. With the people they are meant to serve.
Do you think our government should give us transparency, or not?
People are forgetting the existence of ideologically motivated teachers. I don’t understand it.
The kinds of things that some parents bully, punish, disown and/or murder their children for should very much be hidden from them if the child chooses to hide it. It’s no one else’s business and, if the child has not yet told them themselves, breaking their confidence is an attempt to ruin their life and quite possibly end it.
This is stochastic terrorism from this fascist government, desperate for any distraction at all from their kleptocratic ways.
“Teachers should tell parents if their kid wants to be called cindy instead of timmy”
You: “Literally a stochastic terrorist fascist government”
Not keeping secrets from parents is terrorism?
If your reading comprehension is really that bad, it might explain the low quality of your opinions. You should probably try working on it instead of embarrassing yourself in public.
You literally said “this is terrorism”
Words form sentences form paragraphs. You need to be able to hold more than one thought in your head to be able to comprehend an argument. You should try it.
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Even things kids specifically do not want their parents to know because they have good reasons to believe it will lead to their parents abusing them?
If the parents are abusive, then cps (or local equal) needs to be involved
So increase the likelihood for abuse but then wait until after these children are abused to do something is what you’re saying?
You realise that means letting it get to the point of abuse right?
You’re basically saying that if a child fears letting their parents know something about them could lead to their abuse, they have to hide it and live in fear and distrust until they turn 18 and can run away right?
Because that always solves everything, right?
It solves abusive parents.
It really doesn’t. If you think it does you may be incredibly naive.
If that were true then child abuse wouldn’t exist.
Social media won’t like it, because they think that government employees should be determining what’s okay, not the people themselves.
Are children not people?
Children are not responsible for themselves. Teachers aren’t responsible for them.
Parents are responsible for their kids.
Contact information for the person responsible
God damn… I looked this person up, expecting some asshole white guy,… and it’s a black woman. Hate and bigotry really transcends race and gender.
Why would they not tell their parents? Genuine question from someone out of the loop. If my kid was questioning I would prefer I know, right? The school has the kid for the majority of their time awake during the school year. This makes sense to me.
Because bigots have literally tortured their kids over being queer forever. Kids who don’t feel safe coming out at home usually have a good reason from fear of abuse to becoming homeless.
Because there are deeply bigoted parents that would hit their child if they found out. Maybe try to see it from their viewpoint?
That’s why I commented a question asking for rationale behind a different viewpoint. Thanks stranger, that makes sense.
I’ve been arguing exactly this with someone else somewhere in this thread. There are children who would be abused/kicked out of their home over this sort of thing.
I’d happy waiting until my child is ready to tell me to learn of certain aspects about them if it means protecting another from harm of this sort.
The problem I feel is the very parents demanding to know this information are the exact parents you wouldn’t want knowing this information for their child’s sake.
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That’s completely besides the point. Teachers are responsible for a child’s wellbeing when they are looking after them, and as part of that tbr child might bring that up to their teacher and the child should be able to trust in that teacher to keep it from parents who might react negatively to that news, much like you would a doctor.
This law doesn’t change the education the child receives it only serves to put trans kids at risk of abuse from their parents.
Its not possible to leave it out of instruction. The purpose of education (as it currently exists, and as they claim it to be) is to prepare children to function as adults in society. Some kids have racist parents, some kids have homophobic parents, some kids have misogynistic parents, some children are abused at home or are taught hatred and bigotry. The state has an obligation to advocate for the rights of children, because children are vulnerable and are not capable of removing themselves from an abusive home. Its the entire reason protective services exists in theory. Children are not possessions, you cannot just do whatever you want to your child, your child has the same fundamental human rights as any other human being. And like any other vulnerable human being, society has to ensure that the rights of children are being respected.
Children who are outted to their parents can face homelessness, abuse, psychological torture in conversion camps, ostracization from their friends and communities, isolation, manipulation, and bullying. It can end lives. Children can and do die because they are outted to their transphobic parents. As I said, society had a responsibility to ensure that the rights of children are being respected. The right to safety and security is one such right that is compromised by forcibly outting children to their parents. Educators should ALWAYS have to listen to the child and take no action without the permission of that child. Because children are people, and people are supposed to have rights. Children are not possessions of their parents, they are human beings who have fundamental rights the same as any other human being. The state should not be considering parents at all in this equation. The only person who needs to consider whether or not parents should know would be the children in question.
Children should also be taught about the existence of gay and trans people as part of regular education. The state has an obligation to provide proper education to everyone. Proper education should take steps to mitigate bigotry. Anti racism should be taught in schools, feminism and women’s rights should be taught in schools. It is much the same with gay and trans rights.
Sounds like disingenuous braying to me.
Part of education, especially childhood education, has to be teaching children about the world they live in and how to navigate it. Which does mean that they need to be taught about tolerance and the differences between people. That’s necessary for understanding and navigating the world they’re entering. And teachers are there to guide them on that journey and keep them safe. To be an adult to whom they can ask questions without fear of reprisal. To be someone primarily interested in their success and not some other political goal.
Conservatives are the ones stepping into this process and interfering. Forbidding teachers to teach about the world. And forcing teachers to violate the confidence needed to keep children safe. Conservatives are the ones trying to replace education with a tool for indoctrination.
The only interpretation of a rule like the one in this article is that there is a belief that a child questioning their gender is equivalent to a child admitting to some kind of self-harm. It’s pure bigotry and cruelty from people who know nothing and resist learning anything about the science and psychology of the subject. It is part of a genocidal agenda of demonizing and denying part of human identity. It is unacceptable. And worse, it’s a violation of the fundamental relationship between the teacher and the student. It’s interfering with and taking focus from education.
Be an ally of the human race or shut the fuck up.
So you agree schools should focus on educating students rather than ratting them out to parents they don’t trust?
Teachers are public servants.
If they’re hiding necessary information about my kid from me, that’s not serving the tax payers. That’s government employees determining decisions for kids that aren’t their own, without taking any risk for how these decisions turn out.
If your child is too afraid of telling you something important about themselves or their lives, that is a YOU problem. Public servants exist to protect children from risks to their health and safety, including risks at home. Nobody has a right to abuse their children. If you want to know about their lives and challenges, you need to make yourself a safe person for them to confide in. If you are not, that’s on you and you alone.
If your child is too afraid of telling you something important about themselves or their lives, that is a YOU problem
Did you tell your parents everything in high school?
I smoked weed for the first time when I was 13, I didn’t tell my parents. Is that because my parents are bad? I didn’t tell them I had sex with my first girlfriend, does that make my parents bad? I didn’t tell them I was with my homies and he was speeding down gardener road, going 100.
Are my parents bad?
Public servants exist to protect children from risks to their health and safety, including risks at home.
And we have standards for that, if parents suspect abuse, they have to report it. Whether it’s for the + community, or if it’s for the straight cis community.
Nobody has a right to abuse their children.
I agree.
If you want to know about their lives and challenges, you need to make yourself a safe person for them to confide in.
I agree.
All your examples of things you hid from your parents are dangerous, illegal, and ‘wrong’. You trying to lump personal identity in with things that can lead to jail or teenage pregnancy is very telling.
Should teachers also report when your child makes friends with a student of a different race or religion? Why or why not and if not, how is that any different from this? You keep referring to teachers ‘making decisions about the child’ but nothing is being ‘decided’ by teachers here. It’s the children who are deciding this for themselves because they’re also people with autonomy.
You trying to lump personal identity in with things that can lead to jail or teenage pregnancy is very telling.
Yes, it’s called ‘behavior.’
The government forces parents to send our kids to government institutions for ‘education’ and if we want to know what’s going on they tell us to shut up? Nah, family, I don’t buy into that philosophy.
Should teachers also report when your child makes friends with a student of a different race or religion?
Did you not parent teacher meetings where they talk about how you’re doing in school and who you’re hanging out with?
You keep referring to teachers ‘making decisions about the child’ but nothing is being ‘decided’ by teachers here.
The teachers are deciding to withhold information about how my kid behaves in a government forced institution. The teachers should be working with parents, not fighting against them.
It’s the children who are deciding this for themselves because they’re also people with autonomy.
How much autonomy? If they can decide for themselves, why shouldn’t we remove the drinking age? Smoking age? military age? They’re people with autonomy, right? If a kid gets caught drinking, their parents deal with it, not the kid.
Yes, it’s called ‘behavior.’
What a nonsense, meaningless reply. This sounds like a response from someone who lacks critical thinking skills and doesn’t understand the difference between behavior and identity.
The government forces parents to send our kids to government institutions for ‘education’ and if we want to know what’s going on they tell us to shut up?
This makes you sound unhinged. Who is ‘they’ and when did ‘they’ tell you to shut up?
Did you not parent teacher meetings where they talk about how you’re doing in school and who you’re hanging out with?
Yes, and that’s completely irrelevant to the discussion. Parent teacher conferences don’t consist of the teacher listing the race, religion or ethnicity of the students I/my child hang out with, nor is there a specific mandate for them to do so.
Since you avoided my question, I’ll ask you again: Should teachers also report when your child makes friends with a student of a different race or religion? Why or why not and if not, how is that any different from this? Are you capable of responding to this question or do you find it too challenging?
The teachers are deciding to withhold information about how my kid behaves in a government forced institution.
Are they? Or maybe they’re just minding their own business when it comes to matters that don’t involve education or risky/harmful behavior. If you want to know about your kid’s behavior, why are you asking their teacher instead of them? You complain about ‘forced government institutions’ yet in the next breath demand they be the sole conduit into your child’s life.
The teachers should be working with parents, not fighting against them.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to work with someone who refers to them as a “servant” of theirs and claims they work for a “forced government institution” that’s indoctrinating children? How are they “fighting against you” here?
How much autonomy? If they can decide for themselves, why shouldn’t we remove the drinking age? Smoking age? military age? They’re people with autonomy, right? If a kid gets caught drinking, their parents deal with it, not the kid.
What do any of these things have to do with a person determining their own identity just as every other autonomous human has done for millennia?
What a nonsense, meaningless reply. This sounds like a response from someone who lacks critical thinking skills and doesn’t understand the difference between behavior and identity.
Parents are forced to send their kids to government agents at the threat of taking the kids away. The least they can do is being transparent with my kids behavior, if little jimmy wants everyone to call him Laquisha, that falls under behavior.
This makes you sound unhinged. Who is ‘they’ and when did ‘they’ tell you to shut up?
What’s unhinged about it? My local school boards.
Yes, and that’s completely irrelevant to the discussion.
No it’s not, teachers have been expected to let parents know what their kids are up to and how they’re doing socially, emotionally and with their studies. The fact you are trying to have teachers keep these things from parents is more telling about you.
Parent teacher conferences don’t consist of the teacher listing the race, religion or ethnicity of the students I/my child hang out with, nor is there a specific mandate for them to do so.
You made up this scenario and are arguing against it. That’s weird.
Are they? Or maybe they’re just minding their own business when it comes to matters that don’t involve education or risky/harmful behavior.
If a kid has cancer should the nurses not tell the parents? Is transitioning not a very hard emotionally and mentally situation to be in? pre-transition, the suicide rate attempt is over 40%, how would you feel if your kid attempted suicide and you couldn’t help because the teacher kept it a secret?
Why would anyone in their right mind want to work with someone who refers to them as a “servant”
LOL, I say public servant, and the fact you try to pervert my argument and equate it with ‘servant’ is dishonest and disgusting. Every individual employed by the government is supposed to serve the tax payers.
You complain about ‘forced government institutions’ yet in the next breath demand they be the sole conduit into your child’s life.
I didn’t complain it’s a forced government institution, I said what it was. I don’t demand I be the sole conduit, I demand that the teachers tell me what my kids are up to during their forced institutionalization. I know it may be odd that someone paying for the school, paying for the new gym, property taxes teachers salaries and their supplies might want to know how my kids are doing, but I think the governments job should always include transparency to those that they are serving.
What do any of these things have to do with a person determining their own identity just as every other autonomous human has done for millennia?
You said that kids have autonomy. 13 year olds should be able to buy cigarettes, booze, get tattoos, right? Is there a reason we don’t allow them to?
You sound like exactly the kind of parent teachers should avoid sharing any information with. You claim to be against abuse but you want to force teachers to share information that is well known to result in kids being abused by their parents.
You sound like exactly the kind of parent teachers should avoid sharing any information with.
That’s the problem. You think the government employees should be the ones making decisions on behalf of the kids. They shouldn’t.
You claim to be against abuse but you want to force teachers to share information that is well known to result in kids being abused by their parents.
If teachers suspect abuse, they are legally obligated to report it.
You think the government employees should be the ones making decisions on behalf of the kids.
There is so much wrong with that statement.
First, teachers make decisions on behalf of kids all the time. It’s literally their job.
Noting that they’re government employees just sounds like an anti-government dog whistle.
Saying they’re making a decision “on behalf of kids” is wrong because the law only matters when teachers see a conflict of interest between the parents and kids. They’re being forced to act AGAINST the kids on behalf of unsupportive parents.
Finally, this isn’t just a matter of judgment. We know for a fact that some alarmingly large percentage of parents will disown our otherwise abuse their kids after finding out they’re LBGT+. This law is specifically designed to endanger those kids, and no amount of bloviating about the property role of government will change that fact.
If teachers suspect abuse, they are legally obligated to report it.
They can only report it after it’s too late to prevent it, and they’re being forced to create the conditions that precipitate it. Are you really gonna argue that dealing with abuse after the fact is even remotely as good as preventing it in the first place?
Also, in a lot of cases you’re asking teachers to permanently damage the kids’ relationship with their parents. They’re not gonna get their families back when they become adults
First, teachers make decisions on behalf of kids all the time. It’s literally their job.
No, their job is to teach the basics that we as a local society would like. They are funded by local tax payers to serve tax payers.
Noting that they’re government employees just sounds like an anti-government dog whistle.
Noting that they’re government employees puts into perspective that these are people that should be serving the people, not establishing a government culture in our youth. In principle, there’s little difference between the government using elementary schools to shape the youth as the indian boarding schools. They’ve moved from teaching objective studies like math, english and science, with teaching about subjective topics like sexuality and gender.
Meanwhile our kids test scores are getting worse compared to our peer countries, despite spending a shit ton more money. Then they tell us the reason is because we aren’t giving them enough money.
Saying they’re making a decision “on behalf of kids” is wrong because the law only matters when teachers see a conflict of interest between the parents and kids. They’re being forced to act AGAINST the kids on behalf of unsupportive parents.
You assume giving parents information about their kids school behavior is working against the kids, and also assuming the parents are unsupportive. What you’re asking is for governmeny employees to determine on behalf of the kids what’s better for them than their parents, and judging the morality of their parents based on incomplete information.
You’re asking the teachers to raise the kids. That’s not their jobs.
We know for a fact that some alarmingly large percentage of parents will disown our otherwise abuse their kids after finding out they’re LBGT+.
And we should invest in programs to help the homeless youth.
This law is specifically designed to endanger those kids
We can’t protect everyone from everything their parents do. And shouldn’t leave it up to government employees to make the determination of withholding information about a kids behavior at a place that the government forces parents to send their kids to at the threat of taking the kids away.
Have teachers teach and invest in programs that help the youth whose parents aren’t caring for them. Just like we say that cops have too many issues that they aren’t experts on that we call them for, teachers are being given too much responsibility for issues they aren’t experts in.
Estimates of child abuse range from 10-20% of all school age children in the UK. Any person who is working in a classroom (including TAs and volunteers) has had some amount of safeguarding training to help mitigate the risk of harm to children.
It is literally our/their job to help prevent or mitigate harm that might come to children in their home lives, and teachers, admins, and safeguarding leads make decisions every day based on a clear and well-monitored framework to do so. This decision, made by people with little or no experience in the field, spits in the face of all of that.
Estimates of child abuse range from 10-20% of all school age children in the UK. Any person who is working in a classroom (including TAs and volunteers) has had some amount of safeguarding training to help mitigate the risk of harm to children.
Exactly. “ALL SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN.” We already have all these ways that teachers are obligated to report abuse if they suspect it. Why do we need to carve out special treatment of the LGBTQIA2S+ communities? They’re just humans. If teachers suspect abuse, they should report it, whether it’s for LGBTQIA2S+ or straight cis kids.
It is literally our/their job to help prevent or mitigate harm
No your job is to be a public servant and educate kids. It’s the parents responsibility to ensure their kids are safe.
This decision, made by people with little or no experience in the field, spits in the face of all of that.
Because it comes to parental rights, and limiting the influence government employees push on our youth.
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My entire argument is I think parents should be given the information and ability to raise their kids how they see fit (obviously within limits, like abuse)
The alternative of government employees determining that they know what’s best for other peoples children, without assuming the risk for their actions is insanity.
LGBTQIA2S+, good one. I think they prefer 2SLGBTQIA+ because it elevates indigenous communities. I don’t miss the social sciences, it’s fair to say.
I think the indigenous communities are equals, and I’m not afraid to say it.
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So you’d rather have children being thrown out to the streets
Why is this automatically what’s going to happen to kids whose teachers tell their parents if they’re socially transitioning?
Why is it always ‘OH MY GOD, THE PARENTS WILL KNOW THEY WILL KILL THESE KIDS’
Unless you can prove that that is the most likely scenario in these cases, that’s a shit argument.
killed by their parents
How often does this happen? Can you provide any statistics that can convince a reasonable person this is a widespread issue?
They’re not “determining decisions,” they’re protecting children.
Exactly the difference between you and I. I think the people should be protected from the government, so we can live our lives. You think the government should protect the people by everyone doing what the government thinks.
There’s a reason that kids don’t tell their parents that they’re queer.
Some, sure.
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I’m not saying it happens to every queer kid
You’re acting like this is the default situation if the teachers tell their parents that the kids are socially transitioning at school.
I’m not saying it happens to every queer kid, it’s to prevent “…28% of LGBTQ youth [reporting] experiencing homelessness or housing instability…” and 52% of queer youth [reporting] to have experienced three or more ACEs (adverse childhood experiences,) which includes emotional abuse, sexual abuse, and physical abuse.
And if you look at the survey that it’s based on, it’s clear why the numbers are staggering.
nearly 40% of the surveors is made up of the minority of people that identify as LGBTQIAS2+. Transgenders make up 8% of the LGBTQIA2S+ community, and they clearly have these issues much worse than the others in the community. So they’re weighted more than 4x as much in these statistics.
Do you think these %'s would change vastly if they used a proportionate sample size as the LGBTQIA2S+?
I agree, especially trans youth, have issues at home, that’s why I’m for a huge investment in programs helping these kids, not just for the + community, but for all youths experiencing homelessness, but that’s outside the scope of schools.
but I think that when government is used for the people, by the people, it can be a very useful and productive tool.
What cases would you say the government is used for the people by the people? What’s that mean in schools today?
The schools say we don’t give them enough money, that’s why we’re falling behind. But instead, we give them much much more, while receiving a worse and worse education, and they want to teach our kids stuff we don’t want them to. I imagine the reaction would be different if the education system was doing well, if we felt our kids were being taught correctly. Instead it’s crappy, expensive and not what we want, that’s a bad sell to most parents.
While I’ll probably never be able to convince you, when you’re in a nursing home wondering why your kids never visit you, I hope you realize what I mean.
I’m not worried about it. I treat people with love, and patience. Just because you and I have different views on how to tackle social issues, doesn’t mean I’m gonna die alone and my kids will hate me. It actually makes me feel really bad for you that you think if someone disagrees with you, that their lives should be miserable.
Kids are not your property.
If your kid is trans or gay and they don’t feel safe coming out to you then that’s your fault. There are no decisions being made. Kids are going to be queer weather you like it or not.
If you think you can “do something” about your kids being queer then that’s probably why they don’t want to tell you.
Kids are not your property.
Legally, parents/guardians are responsible for them. If my kid breaks something in a store, do they arrest my kid if he’s unwilling to pay?
If your kid is trans or gay and they don’t feel safe coming out to you then that’s your fault.
I agree.
There are no decisions being made
Deciding to intentionally withhold information from parents is a decision.
Kids are going to be queer weather you like it or not.
I agree.
If you think you can “do something” about your kids being queer then that’s probably why they don’t want to tell you.
I agree.
What are you even arguing, dude? You’re just saying some blanket statements.
Are you going to follow this up by claiming the right to physical violence against your child if they don’t conform?
They have qualifications to do their job. The only qualifications you have is you fucked one night and nine months later popped out a baby. But that suddenly makes you the expert.
You sound like a devil trying to control your children like that.
Exactly. I need you for one purpose: Teach my child <subject>. If my child sets fire to a car, it’s my ass on the line. If my child gets hurt, it’s me at the hospital. If my child has an issue, hiding it from me is less than useful, it’s negligent.
Until a kid is 18, they’re -legally- 100% my responsibility and how they’re raised is my call.
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Hopefully, the rest of the EU holds the line on this, so that when the British come crawling back in a few years with their economy in tatters, they’re forced to roll back all of this barbaric Tory social legislation as a condition of readmittance.
My dream Brexit outcome is that Scotland eventually gets a second referendum and leaves, then joins the EU by itself, then vetoes the rest of the UK when it tries to rejoin.
I’m not Scottish and this outcome would kind of fuck me over personally as well, but it would be hilarious and we’d fully deserve it.
I was questioning the gender of my teachers all the time but they did not go whining to my parents about it. Ill give them that.
French teachers when girls forget the e at the end of adjectives.
