Oh how the mighty have fallen. Vice used to be fucking based. This makes me really sad. Especially disingenuous disinformation like this. Ask someone with ADHD how life saving stimulants like adderall or similar has been for them. It’s nothing like meth, which typically ruins lives.
I don’t know or care about Vice, but I’ve noticed that this particular issue, the comparison between Adderall and meth, seriously upsets people.
Is it that hard to believe that a substance can be therapeutic at certain doses AND easily abused at others? I get it, minor differences in chemical structure can lead to drastic differences in effects. But in this case? Doesn’t seem all that different. I knew a kid in college whose cocktail of choice for a night out was six 30mg Addys + alcohol—and the biggest difference between that and meth, as far as I can tell, is the part about going out.
They are absolutely nothing alike. Adderall is ridiculously easy to get in college and that is why that kid did that. That shit gets spread around like candy on college campuses.
You can’t even smoke adderall. Comparing the two is like comparing 16 fl oz of decaf (like 40mg of caffeine) to 16 fl oz of espresso (1,040 mg). They are not even close to comparable. Nobody outside of college is doing adderall for fun and the ones that are doing that in college are retarded because there are better drugs that are still readily available on campus.
Adderall is almost exactly the same as European speed. Plenty of people do it recreationally and I’d honestly say it’s better than most stimulant drugs for casual use
Speed is amphetamine, adderall is amphetamine. Neither is methamphetamine.
Ok you’re more nuanced comment is the one that gets my upvote.
I used to take 10mg of adderall/ritalin on weekdays and it did fuck me up really bad. In college i learned fellow ADHD students didnt take them during the year (so they where able to be their selves) and snorting them during exams getting better grades then me. Needless to say i have a really negative view of them and i consider it terrible and dangerous drugs. I admit i have often pointed out to other how similar the chemical structure is to illegal drugs like meth and i know there often sold as “poor mans cocaine” or “kiddy-coke”
But what i do not have is experience with actual speed, cocaine or meth, neither do i know people who use Meth. Your comment made me reflect that just because a drugs appears similar doesn’t mean its the same or as bad. But at the same time just because meth is worse that does not mean Adderal is good.
For that last part, most definitely. The point of my argument wasn’t so much to say that adderall isn’t bad for you, but rather that meth is on an entirely different level from adderall. 10mg isn’t really a dangerous dose but it is still enough to affect your mental state, although the kids that abuse them for exams are likely doing far, far more though.
Also, don’t feel too bad about the others using that shit to do better on their exams. There is no chance they retained any of that info long term, it is no better than cheating and those habits will kick them in the ass later in life.
And both speed and meth are used recreationally, your point is?
Because, those drugs are actually, you know, fun to use?
They directly effect your serotonin receptors and release a shit ton of it over a short period of time. MDMA, Speed (pure amphetamine or otherwise), Meth, MDA, pseudoephedrine, cocaine, THOSE are recreational drugs. Adderall is no where near on the same level as those drugs.
Hell, you have to take several doses of it to get to the threshold, the other drugs mentioned act on even very small amounts.
Good lord, how’s that kid doing these days?
Probably a manager at corprate
Ritalin/concerta (the other big ADHD drug) is literally methylphenidate. “Meth” is in the name. Adderall is an amphetamine, the other half to “methamphetamine” …
There’s actually chemical similarities between the drug. Fact is: though similar, there’s a large gap between taking a drug as prescribed by a medical professional in a controlled dosage, versus hitting the pipe behind the dumpster…
I would argue that these drugs like many psychoactive drugs, when abused, could be just as hazardous as their illegal counterpart, however, in clinical use cases, they can be life changing.
There’s an ocean of difference between results if you compare what’s found on the street, to what’s in the bottle from the pharmacy.
This is the case for a lot of chemicals. Even pure cocaine has a place in medicine. The difference between something like methamphetamine bought from a street dealer, and the contents of Adderall or Ritalin/concerta, is huge. Minimizing that difference is doing a disservice to the public and only serves to spread FUD.
It’s worth noting that doctors can literally prescribe methamphetamine to someone with ADHD. It’s brand name is Desoxyn.
So you’re saying that methane works the same as methamphetamine?
Amphetamine and methamphetamine are not that similar. Just because a chemical has a similar structure does not mean it is exactly the same. Buproprion is chemically almost exactly the same as ephedrine but have wildly different effects. Adderall is an amphetamine, vyvanse is an amphetamine.
These other drugs often leave most people feeling like shit, nobody is doing adderrall or these other drugs recreationally. Crystal meth gives you such a ridiculous dopamine rush that you feel like you are on top of the world, like you can conquer anything, but it will give you delusions and eventually that starts to go away.
As someone who takes Vyvanse 70mg (lisdexamfetamine) daily, and have smoked meth a few times, they’re quite different. Vyvanse does give you energy, but it doesn’t make you feel ecstatic. To me it just feels like a really strong coffee but I don’t feel like shit and I can sleep at night.
I’ve been through Vyvanse withdrawals twice, and it sucks, but its nothing like meth withdrawal (I haven’t experienced it myself, but I know people who have). People with a meth addiction are desperate enough to commit crime. Vyvanse withdrawals are so bad, sometimes us neuro-atypicals forget to take our addictive and dangerous drugs.
I don’t suppose you where making sure you smoked only 70mg of meth when you did didn’t you?
Even if I did, it wouldn’t be a valid experiment. Vyvanse can only be metabolised by digestion. You can’t snort, smoke, shelf or inject it. Vyvance takes more than an hour to start working and lasts 12+ hours, meth is a few minutes and lasts a few hours.
My point is they are quite different. Vyvanse, by design, is much harder to abuse, and most people don’t want to take it recreationally.
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I tried to take vyvanse but I just couldn’t handle it. I’m a stim junkie but vyvanse made me spotty as hell. I’d be awake one moment and borderline asleep, get mood swings. I just don’t take prescriptions anymore.
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“nobody is doing adderrall or these other drugs recreationally” wtf. It’s extremely common to take these recreationally. I’ve done this multiple times, great with alcohol and better with alcohol and weed.
If you think adderall is recreational then you have had very limited experience with drugs in your life. Almost everything else that’s scheduled or illegal has a better recreational value.
I have a script for methylphenidate, my prescription is tracked and restricted by my governments health authority, I am only able to have 30 days worth every 30 days. If I try to get it ahead of time by a few weeks, they won’t give it to me. My doctor can only give me three months worth of refills per prescription, so I have to get a new script every 3 months.
It’s still listed as a narcotic.
Your version of recreation isn’t the same as others, while your recreation may be more extreme, it doesn’t make someone’s “more tame” recreation and recreational use of narcotics in any form, any less recreational.
I take methylphenidate for the pharmacological benefit, not for recreation, but I could easily offload my meds for other people’s recreation for a profit. I wouldn’t, but I could. Point is, his recreational use isn’t made invalid because it’s not recreational enough in your opinion. If you’re talking drugs that you don’t need for Medical reasons, it’s recreational.
prescription is tracked That’s generally how prescriptions work. Keep in mind that just because it is a “narcotic” (I’ll explained why it isn’t a narcotic in a moment) doesn’t mean it is a recreational drug.
Firstly, adderall is racemic which reduces the fun affects you would actually get from amphetamine. What we call “speed” is R-amphetamine, or amphetamine with R-enatinomers.
Secondly, narcotics have different definitions on who you ask, one is wildly more accurate than the other. Medically speaking, narcotics refer to opioids and opiates, basically anything psychoactive with numbing or paralyzing attributes. Cocaine doesn’t do this (unless you get a lidocaine cut), yet it is classified as a narcotic (scheduled before they really started doing dirty shit like cutting with things like that). The government however does not classify amphetamines as a narcotic (which they would be correct).
I must warn you before we go on with this conversation that I have quite a fair bit of experience with CNS stimulants medically and otherwise, it is a subject that I have a large amount of knowledge in.
Haha, or maybe I’ve upped the dosage? 60mg is the minimum - better to double. Ofc if you overuse its effect will lessen. I admire how sure you seem in your judgement of strangers.
Nobody said anything about overuse.
I’m not judging you, I’m simply telling you that adderall is not a recreational drug. People get high off diphenhydramine, you think that shit is recreational?
The most recreational thing about adderall is the performance enhancing benefits, it’s great when you need to do a shit ton of cardio. Getting fucked up though? Not really.
Overuse? I’m not going to argue, you’ll turn this discussion in to a beginners philosophy course.
My comment about judgment was referring to your confidence when declaring me as Inexperienced with drugs.
I now belive I’m talking to a very young person, this might be or it might not. Either way it’s a waste of time to continue.
Take a proper dose - stop pushing your ignorance online, and have good time.
What about Nymphetamine?
I wouldn’t really call that a drug so much as a byproduct.
If I may ask, why did you bring that particular substance up?
I had no idea it’s actually a thing, always assumed it as a joke combination of nymphomania and amphetamine. It’s a song/album name by Cradle of Filth
Yeah Im aware of the song too lol, yeah it is an actual substance though.
I know! I used to love their reporting, now it’s rare to find an article that isn’t straight up trash. I don’t have ADHD but I take stimulants to counteract severe lupus-related fatigue. I used to have “mega sleeps” where I’d sleep up to 30 hours at a time (waking up for a pee a few times). It was no life.
Apologies I coult resist
Neither could my doctor when I was diagnosed… I was as amused then as I am now 😉
Indeed you need meth
Vice has been utter shit for most of it’s existence.
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Water is “almost identical” to hydrogen peroxide.
Food and poop are both composed of atoms, so there’s essentially no difference between them.
Says the copromaniac.
Garbage post, “redditor here!1!!” levels of cringe.
Are we seriously going to repost from facebook now?
Given the name/purpose of this community, I would say absolutely. The content of the conversation fits, so who cares the platform on which it happened? Lord knows I don’t want to spend my time looking at every post on Facebook to see stuff like this, that’s why we have aggregators.
Exactly. Except I’m a human, stealing content from Reddit to get this community started.
You don’t get it though, buddy here simply wants to complain about how their taste in content is superior instead of simply not following the community! Poor guy, leave them alone!
Just like on the original Reddit sub, reposts from any and all social media are permitted. It’s basically the point of this community. All posts on here to date have been reposted from Reddit, and about a third of those originated on Facebook. But a big thank you @DominicHillsun for the first homegrown OC - I’m the creator and mod of this community, as well as OP.
How very apropos of you, OP. It’s DYKWIA inception. 🧑🍳🤌🏼🤣
I wondered if I was a bit close to breaking my own “don’t be dick” rule, but I couldn’t resist!
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Do you think I came down on the wrong side of being a dick? I haven’t modded before, it’s just me, and it’s really hard to decide where to draw the line. I don’t want to be a hypocrite and I don’t want to be too heavy handed in removing comments or banning people if it comes to that.
My thought process here was this guy’s initial comment was dickish but not to the point where it required removing their comment. I felt it was unnecessarily rude, but I don’t have the thickest skin. My reply was completely accurate and not rude, but it was heavy on the sarcasm. My ruling: neither of us broke the rule. What’s your take on it?
I stickied a post to the top of this community inviting feedback and suggestions on how to mod this community and what the rules should be. I’m also looking for more people to mod this community with me. I’m actively encouraging input and feedback so please add your thoughts to the stickied post - I genuinely want more people than just me deciding what’s ok and what’s not.
Garbage comment, “Le sophisticated reddit0r” levels of cringe.
Are we seriously going to recomment from reddit now?
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I came here to talk about methyl groups and no one gives them a mention :(
I’m not a chemist but I like drugs. What’s up with methyl groups?
A methyl group is the name given to single carbon (with 3 hydrogens attached) when substituted onto a larger chemical moiety (a structure or motif in chemistry). When people speak about methyl groups they’re mostly speaking about those single carbon methyl group being attached to a heteroatom (atoms other than carbon and hydrogen in organic chemistry, like nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur, etc.).
Methamphetamine (N-methylamphetamine or N-methyl alpha-methyl-phenyl-ethylamine in full form) has a methyl group on it’s amine (nitrogen or N-position), which drastically alters its psychological effects and the way it’s synthesized by chemists (requiring methylamine). The methyl group there prolonges the stimulating effects, while also providing serotonergic effects (generally euphoric effects caused by interaction with the serotonin receptor transport protein), which gives it much greater addiction potential.
Methyl groups in general don’t “make drugs stronger” like the other guy said. To consider drug receptor interaction you need to take into account how well a molecule fits into the receptor you’re targetting as a whole.
Moiety? Motif? Never heard of these things in this context. Why not just compound or structure? Good post otherwise.
I’m not referring to the compound or structure as a whole with this. Calling anything a moiety is just a way of singling out one specific part of a molecule, without it having to be a specific functional group in chemistry (like amines, alcohols, methoxy groups, halides, ketones, etc.). It’s sometimes also called a motif in the same way that repeating paterns in art can be a motif.
You’re right that I probably put that in a confusing way. What I meant is that methyl groups are mostly used in the context of methoxy groups and secondary (like methamphetamine) and tertiary amines/imines and ethers, but sometimes also with a carbon - carbon bond, which isn’t really the same thing.
Thats super interesring. It always amazes me how a small modification like a methyl group can so drastically alter the psychoactive properties of a substance. The body is such a nuanced and complicated system, its fascinating.
I really hope drug laws change so that we can see more research being done. Things like this help us learn more about not just the sustance, but the way our chemisty works & how our concious experience is shaped.
If you have any cool links on this topic, id love to browse them. Either way thanks for your run down on methyl groups :)
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What exactly is methanol a good example of? Are you saying methanol is a “stronger drug” than some other type of alcohol? Honestly confused here.
No idea what they’re on about, but if I had to wager a guess…
Ethyl alcohol, is generally drinking alcohol. You’ll find it in every bottle of liquor or spirits or beer… Also known as ethanol, it’s a good time. There are some studies linking it to cancer so please self regulate.
Methyl alcohol, aka methanol is most commonly associated to moonshine, though, commonalities shouldn’t necessarily imply that all moonshine or moonshine labeled or marketed products contain methanol. As an alcohol, it has a similar but usually a perceived stronger effect. The problem is that the bodies natural systems to break down methyl alcohol actually cause the body up convert it into two different neurotoxins, which is where moonshine gets the reputation that it makes you go blind. The neurotoxins literally cause nerve damage causing your vision to be lost in extreme cases. In very low doses, the likelihood of long term effects from drinking methanol is rather low, but large doses of methanol have the very real chance of blinding or killing you.
Due to this, I expect the poster was trying to make a joke about how methanol is significantly more potent than “regular” alcohol aka ethanol; implying it was stronger due to “meth”.
But I’m just guessing.
They both contain one methyl group, however. It’s literally the alcohol with the fewest methyl groups. I mean we could start talking about isopropyl alcohol with two, but I’d hesitate to characterize it as a “drug”.
It is a drug mate
Isopropyl alcohol? I guess in the sense that any poison is a drug. It’s not going to have any positive effects at any dose. I wouldn’t know how to quantify it’s “strength” vs methanol. LD50, assuming the desired effect was death?
Please go and drink some then, if this is really what you think.
While we are glad you used the trade mark your misspelling means we will have to dock part of your stipend.
John Soda Marketing Exec
I’m still waiting for someone to acknowledge my extremely lame pun in the title. It’s hard being this unfunny.
It made me think of Beth’s song from Dog the Bounty Hunter if that means anything. I finally realized its a Barnes and Barnes joke as well.
I mean, Methamphetamine is extremely similar, pharmacologically, with Adderall. Desoxyn is the ‘medicine brand name’ for meth, to treat ADHD.
Biggest difference between Crystal Meth, the street drug, and Desoxyn, the medicine, is dosage. A Desoxyn tablet is about 100x less methamphetamine than you’d take to ‘get high’. (not to mention, pills have a slower release than smoking it).
And yeah, there are other differences between Adderall and Meth; for the most part, Adderall is safer, less addictive, and less ‘makes you high’. So there’s very few people still using Desoxyn, but it is still out there. For reasons that aren’t really understood, Methamphetamine does work to treat a few people’s ADHD for whom Adderall doesn’t do much.
(and, for that matter, there are a pretty huge array of different amphetamines to treat ADHD and similar things, that are all subtly different in not very well understood ways, made messier by the fact that pharmaceutical companies making sure to push out a new drug, that might just be a new mix of existing drugs, every 10 years, for patent reasons. But Desoxyn is basically a ‘last resort’ to throw at the wall, if the patient hasn’t responded well to any of the others.)
I feel like the biggest difference by far is that most amphetamines are prescribed in XR formulations these days. The feeling caused by a slow trickle of product from a laser-drilled capsule or time-release beads over 8-12 hours is incomparable to the rush of smoking or snorting powdered amphetamine. For a lot of drugs the biggest addiction driver is actually the rise rate which causes the “hit”. i.e. compare addictive cigarettes with nearly harmless pipe.
That’s why when people abuse Adderall they usually crush it up and toot it, and they aren’t railing 100 tablets at a go.
Myself I have taken Adderall and now take Dexadrine (it’s cheaper) and have never felt any addictive pull from either. When I go camping I always take a multi-day break and never feel any ill effects other than a desire to chase squirrels and bother strangers with excessive chat.
I always bring some with me though so I can take one on the last day and effectively pack up my campsite without leaving anything behind, lol
I’m just putting this out there, that, cocaine also helps treat ADHD.
It’s not used in clinical treatments, but it has been observed that while neurotypical brains exposed to cocaine get an unfocused energy increase, ADHD brains tend to get a higher level of focus with that energy increase.
Theoretically it’s possible for someone to treat their own ADHD using cocaine.
… It’s a really bad idea, but it’s possible.
I mean, original coca cola, or even chewing coca leaves like South Americans could probably do the trick.
Ah yes, that’s what the methheads in my state are smoking, Adderall! Not methamphetamine (or are they, since they are the same thing now apparently?)
It’s so clear to me now, why wouldn’t you? Adderall is so much cheaper than methamphetamine and readily available!
Here’s an article by a psychiatrist that goes into more detail.
This study asks abusers how much they use in an average day, and gets numbers from about 300 to 800 mg. An average clinical dose of either Adderall or Desoxyn would be about 20 mg a day.
It also talks about that meth acting more quickly (which can make it more addicting), and people injecting or snorting it (which makes it act more quickly).
Nice source/quote! Just to add my personal experience, when I was first put on modafinil (diphenylmethyl-sulfinylacetamide) for debilitating fatigue and brain fog, I asked my doctor if I’d experience a high or feel super focused. He explained that taking 200mg of modafinil would make an otherwise healthy person 20% more stimulated (for example). But there’s something wrong with me so I’m only functioning at 60% to begin with. When I take 200mg modafinil it also stimulates me by 20%, but that only brings me up to 90% of what a normal healthy person feels like anyway. So I don’t feel a high, I just feel closer to normal. That’s heavily paraphrased and really oversimplified, but it helped me understand it a bit better when I was young and worried about taking all these medications.
I believe that’s what the kids would call, “ratioed”
The reply is dumb but the re-reply is cringe lol
Agreed. If the credentials in their second comment were what qualified the statement in the first comment, why did they sign the first comment “licensed psychologist”, a title that doesn’t inherently qualify someone to speak to the pharmacological question.
The second comment is summarizing what they researched for their PsyD degree and partially explaining why therapist and psychologist are not synonymous.
I wasn’t super clear on the subject, so I did a bit of googling. It doesn’t look like any of the subjects in the second comment are required courses for a psychology degree. Apparently a psychologist isn’t a medical doctor and can’t prescribe medication. I don’t think that saying they are a psychologist would give any indication that they are qualified to speak to the subject.
My husband is a ClinPsyD and you’re right that those aren’t specific to that degree, but as psychologists specialise they tend to get advanced training which is probably where that comes in. My husband specialises in neuro, specifically brain injury and has done further diplomas that have included study of degenerative disorders, traumatic brain injury and other neuro specific diseases.
I know in the US some states allow psychologists to prescribe which I would assume requires some pharmacological training beyond a normal degree, so I would guess that’s what has happened here.
And this being the internet, of course they’re qualified, why else would they rattle off a bunch of topics they’ve supposedly mastered? Surely no one on the internet would ever lie to win an argument!
People wonder why everyone on the internet is so full of shit, but then they take something like this at face value.
And the thing is, it’s actually somehow less cringe if they’re making the whole thing up. Healthy, well adjusted adults don’t argue with strangers on facebook, and they definitely don’t list random topics they’ve studied to “win” the argument. On reddit there used to be an allegory about pigeons and chess that applies here.
But my money is still on this person having no psychology degree whatsoever, because…I’m not new to the freakin’ internet. Cheap, unprovable claims to authority should be dismissed as easily as they’re written.
If you’re saying something factually verifiable or properly sourced then fine, but rattling off “credentials” to internet strangers is cringe af and always will be. I take it as an immediate sign that you’re not confident in your facts and are hoping to avoid or deflect scrutiny.
Agreed. Comments should only be valued as much as their inherent value in the eyes of the reader, or through the reputable sources they cite. Claimed external qualifications are pointless.
Because a psychiatrist would prescribe the same amount that you would get on the streets. Such genius, Vice. Much heterodox.
“coffee is also a stimulant, like meth” Its a blatant attempt to get the hysteria boiling by a news company. Gotta get those clicks.
