It’s just very hard to find a compromise or “agree to disagree” when the topic of debate is something like should LGBT people be allowed to exist. The days are long past where the right/left divide was all about economic policy – the divide lies along basic human values at this point. You’re going to be hard pressed to find people who can engage with you calmly when you’re defending a party whose primary concerns right now are stripping away civil rights from their least favorite human beings before all else.
Then explain to the class what you do believe in. Give us 3 bullet points you’d want a candidate to also support.
I’ll start as an example:
I believe in complete and unequivocal abortion rights for women
High speed rail should get more funding in the US, and car based transport (where rail could be a realistic replacement) should not be a cheap as it is
Gerrymandering should be ended, and federal level elections should be taken over by a nonpartisan 50-50 committee to create new maps when local governments continue to submit unacceptable voting maps to intentionally stall so they can keep using the old gerrymandered map for the next elections
I’m not a politician, but I’m voting for the Conservative Party in Canada, I would suggest you look into their platform if you’re interested because I’m a supporter
I don’t think gay or trans people shouldn’t participate in society. That doesn’t make any sense.
There are people that say a lot of crazy shit I don’t agree with, on the left as well.
Is there an argument that trans people need help? I think that’s pretty obvious. Is the help needed for the brain or the body? I think thats where a lot of disagreement comes from.
When I think about it, I can see why someone would think that surgery on a healthy body because the mind thinks it was born in the wrong body could be the wrong thing to do.
I don’t think that’s at all unreasonable. Most mental illnesses are treated by treating the mind.
And if your mind disagrees with the healthy body you were born in, I can see how the mind might be the place to start treatment, and not the body.
However, I also believe in adults being able to make their own decisions. Just as if someone wants to have cosmetic surgery to install horns in their head, or someone wants breast augmentation surgery, go fill your boots.
So if someone wants a surgeon to create a cosmetic neovagina forcthemselves and that would make them happy, go for it.
I also think adults should be able to hook themselves on heroin if they want. No one is there to hold your hand through life, most of all the government
If you’re an adult, make your own decisions and live with the consequences. I’m not here to babysit you.
Just wanted to add to this that the amount of downvotes I’m receiving just by speaking in this discussion just further proves my point.
I’m not welcome here, that’s clear, that’s why you don’t see more people like me online in places like this. But don’t let that fool you, we exist. Just not in the same places that you like to hang out.
So there’s the rub. Are puberty blockers treatment for the mind or body? If it’s a “body” treatment and therefore the “wrong place to start” should children not have access to this treatment until they are 18? It does reduce morbidity of the condition.
You get shit on for your opinions because they are both uninformed and callous. You are also missing the point of the healthcare by focusing on elective cosmetic surgeries.
The way you talk about this subject is just awful.
I don’t consider cosmetic surgery ‘health care’. Gender reassignment surgery is cosmetic surgery. It’s not like a knee replacement or a quadruple bypass surgery.
Everything I’ve said has been to the adult population and that adults can make their own decisions.
Children cannot make those decisions for themselves. And in those cases, I think they need to be taken on a case by case basis and taken very seriously.
I don’t have much of an opinion on puberty blockers, other than to say that if the body is healthy and normal, I wouldn’t choose to medicate or mess with my child’s natural process of growing up into an adult.
Those are my personal beliefs and they apply to any ‘health care’ my kids would receive. If there is nothing wrong with the body’s process, I don’t see any reason to interfere.
Now if other parents don’t think that way, they can parent their kids however they see fit.
Being a parent is a difficult thing. All parents want what’s best for their kids, and no matter how hard we try to be the best parents we can be, I don’t think any child makes it out of childhood without some for of trauma, unfortunately.
I carry trauma from childhood, I’m sure my children will as well. I’m sure you do, as well as all of your friends.
You can assert that I’m ‘callous, uninformed and awful’ as much as you want, I’m used to much much worse. But I know myself (you don’t), and I know how empathetic I am to everyone’s unique situations.
My personal beliefs don’t really apply to anyone else. I just hope everyone ends up happier tomorrow than they were yesterday, and one size isn’t going to fit all.
That’s why I need to trust you to make the best life decisions for yourself. I’m not equipped to make those decisions for you.
I’m also not going to go out of my way to fix your mistakes though, either. Not because I’m callous, but because I think we are all on our own journey, and there is no safety net out there.
Life is very dangerous, you have the ability to really fuck it up. So take care of yourself, make good decisions, be strong, be independent, and have faith in yourself
Breast augmentation is a body mod. It’s putting silicone under the skin to project a certain aesthetic, same as similar body modifications.
The mental health benefits of cosmetic surgeries aren’t what I would consider ‘health care’ either. Like I said, some people get tattoos all over their faces. I’m sure that improves their mental health. I wouldn’t say that makes it a recommended health care service for people with low self esteem or anything.
If someone is unhappy and it is causing them mental health distress and they feel like cosmetic surgery will make them happy, and they receive the cosmetic surgery that makes them happy, how is that ‘health care’?
If someone is happier with bigger breasts, that’s consider health care? This is so stupid
If a dude injects synthol into his arms so his muscles appear bigger and that makes him happy, that’s just him practicing health care on himself?
Like what are we even talking about here?
As far as I’m aware, there is no mental default for ‘healthy’. Not like there is with the body. The brain functions in a much different way than the body does. What makes one person feel happy isn’t going to make another person happy. This is called personality and emotion.
The medical field can sometimes return a defective body to a working state through medical intervention. I haven’t seen medicine be able to make someone ‘happy’ though.
It sounds like a lot of this argument revolves around making someone feel happy. I just don’t see how happiness is considered health care, in any serious sense. Happiness is up to the individual, has a lot to do with how someone feels, and is not directly tied to a medical process that can augment someone’s base happiness.
These kinds of studies are always done through surveys, because there is no medical test that defines a persons level of happiness. All it is is filling out survey questions.
“On a scale of 1-10 how happy do you feel?”
“On a scale of 1-10 how happy do you feel now?”
“Do you have more or less suicidal ideation today?”
It’s not very scientific, people aren’t very good at quantifying their own happiness and there is no objective testing to give you a reliable score.
You can try to medicate the chemistry in the brain to try to affect someone’s mood or happiness level, but even now studies are coming out saying things like depression aren’t tied as much to brain chemistry as they thought 20 years ago.
This is to say that what we might considered correct today, isn’t necessarily correct. The right thing never changes, as the absolute truth remains constant, but our perception of and uncovering of what that truth is, changes.
Sounds like this should be something that is discussed and decided upon by a medical professional and their patient. Mr. conservative over here wants big government intervening in peoples lives. weird.
Online isn’t a real place, you’ve got bots and trolls and people who just say things to get a reaction.
If you know people IRL that believe lgbt people shouldn’t exist, I guess I feel bad for you and who you associate with. I don’t know anyone at all like that, not even close to that.
Also, I don’t feel like I need to defend the ideas of the most crazy people/trolls you can find online. I’ll defend my own words and beliefs, but I don’t feel the need to defend the most extreme examples of dumb things you’ve read online that someone else posted.
You can relativise things all you want, it’s a fact that online insanity does leak back into the reality. For example see Qanon, or Brenton Tarrant, who used to frequent 4chan and 8chan. Not to mention the more trivial things such as people openly agreeing with Andrew Tate, or becoming fans and voters of Donald Trump due to his online presence, etc.
If you know people IRL that believe lgbt people shouldn’t exist, I guess I feel bad for you and who you associate with.
Did you just spin this into a covert ad hominem? Nice job, but I don’t “associate” with every person whose views I hear espoused IRL.
I don’t know anyone at all like that, not even close to that.
Ok? But why assume that every community and society is exactly like yours? From your other comments I notice you’re from Canada, I hope you’re aware your political culture isn’t typical for the rest of the world, not even for the entire “west”.
I don’t feel the need to defend the most extreme examples of dumb things you’ve read online that someone else posted.
Right, so you didn’t have to claim such people and such extreme positions literally don’t exist - with caps lock, no less. I probably wouldn’t think of replying to you if you didn’t formulate it so categorically.
Yup, pretty much. And most of the times I’ve seen right wing people just come comment the most batshit crazy thing imaginable. This doesn’t mean left wing lunatics don’t exist too.
It’s just very hard to find a compromise or “agree to disagree” when the topic of debate is something like should LGBT people be allowed to exist. The days are long past where the right/left divide was all about economic policy – the divide lies along basic human values at this point. You’re going to be hard pressed to find people who can engage with you calmly when you’re defending a party whose primary concerns right now are stripping away civil rights from their least favorite human beings before all else.
This is something people on the right just find absolutely ridiculous. No one. NO ONE, think LGBT people shouldn’t be allowed to exist.
This is a big part of the problem, another response to my comment said people who think like I do support genocide.
Like this just sounds so hyperbolic and absolutely laughably ridiculous that no one has the patience to put up with it. It’s not a discussion.
You think I want an entire group of people to not exist. You have been taught this from somewhere and it’s not true. But you’ll never realize that.
So what’s the point?
Then explain to the class what you do believe in. Give us 3 bullet points you’d want a candidate to also support.
I’ll start as an example:
I’m not a politician, but I’m voting for the Conservative Party in Canada, I would suggest you look into their platform if you’re interested because I’m a supporter
But there are people recently that have said they should get stuck into asylums.
Does existing not include participating in society?
I don’t think gay or trans people shouldn’t participate in society. That doesn’t make any sense.
There are people that say a lot of crazy shit I don’t agree with, on the left as well.
Is there an argument that trans people need help? I think that’s pretty obvious. Is the help needed for the brain or the body? I think thats where a lot of disagreement comes from.
When I think about it, I can see why someone would think that surgery on a healthy body because the mind thinks it was born in the wrong body could be the wrong thing to do.
I don’t think that’s at all unreasonable. Most mental illnesses are treated by treating the mind.
And if your mind disagrees with the healthy body you were born in, I can see how the mind might be the place to start treatment, and not the body.
However, I also believe in adults being able to make their own decisions. Just as if someone wants to have cosmetic surgery to install horns in their head, or someone wants breast augmentation surgery, go fill your boots.
So if someone wants a surgeon to create a cosmetic neovagina forcthemselves and that would make them happy, go for it.
I also think adults should be able to hook themselves on heroin if they want. No one is there to hold your hand through life, most of all the government
If you’re an adult, make your own decisions and live with the consequences. I’m not here to babysit you.
Just wanted to add to this that the amount of downvotes I’m receiving just by speaking in this discussion just further proves my point.
I’m not welcome here, that’s clear, that’s why you don’t see more people like me online in places like this. But don’t let that fool you, we exist. Just not in the same places that you like to hang out.
And I think everyone likes that just fine
So there’s the rub. Are puberty blockers treatment for the mind or body? If it’s a “body” treatment and therefore the “wrong place to start” should children not have access to this treatment until they are 18? It does reduce morbidity of the condition.
You get shit on for your opinions because they are both uninformed and callous. You are also missing the point of the healthcare by focusing on elective cosmetic surgeries.
The way you talk about this subject is just awful.
I don’t consider cosmetic surgery ‘health care’. Gender reassignment surgery is cosmetic surgery. It’s not like a knee replacement or a quadruple bypass surgery.
Everything I’ve said has been to the adult population and that adults can make their own decisions.
Children cannot make those decisions for themselves. And in those cases, I think they need to be taken on a case by case basis and taken very seriously.
I don’t have much of an opinion on puberty blockers, other than to say that if the body is healthy and normal, I wouldn’t choose to medicate or mess with my child’s natural process of growing up into an adult.
Those are my personal beliefs and they apply to any ‘health care’ my kids would receive. If there is nothing wrong with the body’s process, I don’t see any reason to interfere.
Now if other parents don’t think that way, they can parent their kids however they see fit.
Being a parent is a difficult thing. All parents want what’s best for their kids, and no matter how hard we try to be the best parents we can be, I don’t think any child makes it out of childhood without some for of trauma, unfortunately.
I carry trauma from childhood, I’m sure my children will as well. I’m sure you do, as well as all of your friends.
You can assert that I’m ‘callous, uninformed and awful’ as much as you want, I’m used to much much worse. But I know myself (you don’t), and I know how empathetic I am to everyone’s unique situations.
My personal beliefs don’t really apply to anyone else. I just hope everyone ends up happier tomorrow than they were yesterday, and one size isn’t going to fit all.
That’s why I need to trust you to make the best life decisions for yourself. I’m not equipped to make those decisions for you.
I’m also not going to go out of my way to fix your mistakes though, either. Not because I’m callous, but because I think we are all on our own journey, and there is no safety net out there.
Life is very dangerous, you have the ability to really fuck it up. So take care of yourself, make good decisions, be strong, be independent, and have faith in yourself
The surgery is not only cosmetic, it has several health benefits.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/
It seems like you are selectively uninformed. You put breast argumentation in the same basket as extreme body mods.
Your choice to deprive your children of medication that would reduce their rate of suicidality is concerning. Would you let your son wear a dress?
Breast augmentation is a body mod. It’s putting silicone under the skin to project a certain aesthetic, same as similar body modifications.
The mental health benefits of cosmetic surgeries aren’t what I would consider ‘health care’ either. Like I said, some people get tattoos all over their faces. I’m sure that improves their mental health. I wouldn’t say that makes it a recommended health care service for people with low self esteem or anything.
If someone is unhappy and it is causing them mental health distress and they feel like cosmetic surgery will make them happy, and they receive the cosmetic surgery that makes them happy, how is that ‘health care’?
If someone is happier with bigger breasts, that’s consider health care? This is so stupid
If a dude injects synthol into his arms so his muscles appear bigger and that makes him happy, that’s just him practicing health care on himself?
Like what are we even talking about here?
As far as I’m aware, there is no mental default for ‘healthy’. Not like there is with the body. The brain functions in a much different way than the body does. What makes one person feel happy isn’t going to make another person happy. This is called personality and emotion.
The medical field can sometimes return a defective body to a working state through medical intervention. I haven’t seen medicine be able to make someone ‘happy’ though.
It sounds like a lot of this argument revolves around making someone feel happy. I just don’t see how happiness is considered health care, in any serious sense. Happiness is up to the individual, has a lot to do with how someone feels, and is not directly tied to a medical process that can augment someone’s base happiness.
These kinds of studies are always done through surveys, because there is no medical test that defines a persons level of happiness. All it is is filling out survey questions.
“On a scale of 1-10 how happy do you feel?” “On a scale of 1-10 how happy do you feel now?” “Do you have more or less suicidal ideation today?”
It’s not very scientific, people aren’t very good at quantifying their own happiness and there is no objective testing to give you a reliable score.
You can try to medicate the chemistry in the brain to try to affect someone’s mood or happiness level, but even now studies are coming out saying things like depression aren’t tied as much to brain chemistry as they thought 20 years ago.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression
This is to say that what we might considered correct today, isn’t necessarily correct. The right thing never changes, as the absolute truth remains constant, but our perception of and uncovering of what that truth is, changes.
They did lobotomies on people, ffs.
Sounds like this should be something that is discussed and decided upon by a medical professional and their patient. Mr. conservative over here wants big government intervening in peoples lives. weird.
Would you care to explain the policy changes right wing politicians are making then?
https://www.conservative.ca/pierre-poilievre/
This is who I’m voting for in the next Canadian election. I have a hard time disagreeing with anything Pierre Poilievre is campaigning on.
You can find a lot of him speaking in parliament on YouTube if you’re interested
What I’ve heard IRL and what I’ve read online in less moderated spaces speaks to the contrary.
Online isn’t a real place, you’ve got bots and trolls and people who just say things to get a reaction.
If you know people IRL that believe lgbt people shouldn’t exist, I guess I feel bad for you and who you associate with. I don’t know anyone at all like that, not even close to that.
Also, I don’t feel like I need to defend the ideas of the most crazy people/trolls you can find online. I’ll defend my own words and beliefs, but I don’t feel the need to defend the most extreme examples of dumb things you’ve read online that someone else posted.
You can relativise things all you want, it’s a fact that online insanity does leak back into the reality. For example see Qanon, or Brenton Tarrant, who used to frequent 4chan and 8chan. Not to mention the more trivial things such as people openly agreeing with Andrew Tate, or becoming fans and voters of Donald Trump due to his online presence, etc.
Did you just spin this into a covert ad hominem? Nice job, but I don’t “associate” with every person whose views I hear espoused IRL.
Ok? But why assume that every community and society is exactly like yours? From your other comments I notice you’re from Canada, I hope you’re aware your political culture isn’t typical for the rest of the world, not even for the entire “west”.
Right, so you didn’t have to claim such people and such extreme positions literally don’t exist - with caps lock, no less. I probably wouldn’t think of replying to you if you didn’t formulate it so categorically.
Yup, pretty much. And most of the times I’ve seen right wing people just come comment the most batshit crazy thing imaginable. This doesn’t mean left wing lunatics don’t exist too.