Like, the last time democrats had the executive and legislature, we got the Affordable Healthcare Act – which, yeah did help some people. But didn’t change any of the underlying rot in our healthcare - 12 years on, we’re still having the same conversations about the same problems.
Vote, it’s the least that can be done. But don’t kid yourself about what that does. Our problems require far more, far more citizen participation and far more work than merely voting.
Are you certain of that? In a country where half of the population consistently, chronically, for decades, doesn’t vote?
Every election brings with it the chance of loosing. Seems to me that something radical is what tips the scales. What gets that checked out population to sit up and take notice. Play too conservatively (with a lowercase ‘c’), and they stay checked out.
Am I certain that consistent, overwhelming victories for say 20 years will mean that they can implement policies that are further left? Fucking yes. Come the fuck on.
You win elections from the center. The center (the Overton window) moves by who wins elections over time. This is why we’re having idiotic right wing discussions about disbanding the EPA - because Trump won an election. He won one, so the whole spectrum moved right. If he hadn’t won, we wouldn’t be having these discussions. C’mon this is so fucking easy.
No, no, I have been assured that 90% of the American electorate is secretly super far-left and just waiting for someone who is Radical Enough for their tastes.
Definitely it’s not that when you speak to average American voters, even the leftmost 20% looks like a fucking conservative compared to the Fediverse.
The Overton window is a cultural measurement, not a tally of recent political victories. It is a range determined by our media and our history, the sum of what people talk and think about, what they experience in the political economic and artistic worlds. It is a crude way of describing what is collectively believed to be possible. The spectrum doesn’t just shift to the right because “conservatives won”, it shifted to the right before Trump won – that’s how he was able to win. And the preceding administration played a big role in that shift.
After the recession, people felt like they had been left behind. The banks and the auto manufactures got a huge bailout, but there was very little help for the individuals and families caught in the downturn. Nearly all the economic growth through the recovery was happening for top earners, not median households. People’s lived experiences didn’t match the story of recovery that was described in the news and by politicians…
…which is why Trump’s victory caught so many established Democrats off guard. They didn’t notice the window shift, they thought it was still the same place it was four years ago when Obama won his second term.
…with everything that has happened recently, I have this dreadful sense of the familiar. Young people see lives being taken in Palestine and are angry. Old people see us lurching toward another conflict in the Middle East and are weary. Everyone is grumbling about the price of groceries. Democratic leadership keeps insisting that things are fine and actually getting better. Does that seem like a recipe for consistent, overwhelming victory?
Dude this is so simple. Where is the Overton window because of Trump’s victory? It’s fucking off the cliff right because of Trump’s victory. There are conversations taking place now that would have been unimaginable before Trump won. And they are taking place because Trump won.
We can even play the hypothetical. Where would it be if Hillary Clinton won? Fucking easy, it would be further left. Or the hypothetical what it Trump won a second term? Fucking easy again, it would be even further right - because all his rhetoric would be backed up with wins that this is what the people want.
To talk like the Overton window is not affected by election wins is sticking your head in the sand. It’s literally a referendum on what is and what is not acceptable policy and talking points be it social, economic, thinly belief racism, everything. This is so fucking easy to see.
I’m not saying election wins don’t affect it, I’m saying how our elected officials behave while in office affect it even more, both intentionally and unintentionally.
If your opponents are talking about and implementing far-right nonsense, you push against the opposite edge of the window – staying in the cetre just lets them push more to the right. Democrats always running to the center is primarily how we got here in the first place. You are inadvertently arguing that we follow Republicans further to the right as they continue to push against the edge of the window.
Up to now you could have fooled me because you certainly sounded like you were saying elections don’t affect it.
So how they act. Hmmmmmmmmmm. I wonder how Trump acted while in office. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Come the fuck on. You already know exactly how this plays out. Do I have to keep talking? Fine. Trump acted extremely right wing while in office and guess fucking what? It moved fucking right. And he could because he fucking won the election. You’re basically agreeing without even realizing it.
Dems go to the center in order to win. JFC. This is so easy. When you run against an incumbent you have to run from the center. That was Bill Clinton and Biden. Hillary Clinton went a smidge left with the climate change war room and lost. Guess what the Dems learned from that. Hmmmmmmm. They learned to stay in the fucking middle in order to win.
JFC I’m not saying follow Republicans right in any way. What are you smoking. That doesn’t even warrant saying anything else. But fuck I guess I have to keep hammering it home huh. You move left by consistently and overwhelming winning elections. The more you win, the more left you can move. JFC this is easy. I don’t know if I’m going to reply any more because I’m just repeating myself and you don’t understand anything (or you do but want to twist yourself into knots to excuse yourself from not voting. Actually that’s likely.)
Yeah it did help some people? It still continues to help a bunch of people and was change so impactful that now, Even republican voters don’t want it repealed.
Half measures is the only thing Democrats can pass with the limited power that they have. That didn’t even have a full 2 years in control of the executive and legislative branch when the ACA was passed, with some Democrats being very conservative. the only way to get the law passed was by getting all members to agree, including the most conservative Members. The public option in particular was one of the things removed from the ACA because of conservative dissent.
It helped insurance companies. The uninsured rate is super low these days but tons of people still can’t afford premiums and our of pocket costs and skip healthcare anyway
with some Democrats being very conservative
And whenever people try to call out conservative Democratic party members for screwing things up they get shouted down in comment threads just like these
One of The pointa of the ACA was to force insurance companies to allow people with preexisting conditions the ability to not get denied by insurances. insurances hate covering people you know will be sick, and love healthy people. they were not happy with this change.
I agree the problems you said need to be resolved still, but that’s for Congress to address now or whenever. Hopefully soon. The ACA wasn’t a bill to help lower rates across the board.
And whenever people try to call out conservative Democratic party members for screwing things up they get shouted down in comment threads just like these
I don’t like conservative Democrats, but I love them more than Republican politicians because they help more. I enjoy progressive Democrats more than both. Can’t speak for other people on Lemmy.
There’s a bit of a pattern of half-measures here.
Like, the last time democrats had the executive and legislature, we got the Affordable Healthcare Act – which, yeah did help some people. But didn’t change any of the underlying rot in our healthcare - 12 years on, we’re still having the same conversations about the same problems.
Vote, it’s the least that can be done. But don’t kid yourself about what that does. Our problems require far more, far more citizen participation and far more work than merely voting.
You can’t do something radical when there’s a very real chance of losing the next election. C’mon, this is easy.
So how do you convince them they have leeway? By them consistently winning.
Are you certain of that? In a country where half of the population consistently, chronically, for decades, doesn’t vote?
Every election brings with it the chance of loosing. Seems to me that something radical is what tips the scales. What gets that checked out population to sit up and take notice. Play too conservatively (with a lowercase ‘c’), and they stay checked out.
Am I certain that consistent, overwhelming victories for say 20 years will mean that they can implement policies that are further left? Fucking yes. Come the fuck on.
You win elections from the center. The center (the Overton window) moves by who wins elections over time. This is why we’re having idiotic right wing discussions about disbanding the EPA - because Trump won an election. He won one, so the whole spectrum moved right. If he hadn’t won, we wouldn’t be having these discussions. C’mon this is so fucking easy.
No, no, I have been assured that 90% of the American electorate is secretly super far-left and just waiting for someone who is Radical Enough for their tastes.
Definitely it’s not that when you speak to average American voters, even the leftmost 20% looks like a fucking conservative compared to the Fediverse.
No, it’s that they’re Just Waiting.
The Overton window is a cultural measurement, not a tally of recent political victories. It is a range determined by our media and our history, the sum of what people talk and think about, what they experience in the political economic and artistic worlds. It is a crude way of describing what is collectively believed to be possible. The spectrum doesn’t just shift to the right because “conservatives won”, it shifted to the right before Trump won – that’s how he was able to win. And the preceding administration played a big role in that shift.
After the recession, people felt like they had been left behind. The banks and the auto manufactures got a huge bailout, but there was very little help for the individuals and families caught in the downturn. Nearly all the economic growth through the recovery was happening for top earners, not median households. People’s lived experiences didn’t match the story of recovery that was described in the news and by politicians…
…which is why Trump’s victory caught so many established Democrats off guard. They didn’t notice the window shift, they thought it was still the same place it was four years ago when Obama won his second term.
…with everything that has happened recently, I have this dreadful sense of the familiar. Young people see lives being taken in Palestine and are angry. Old people see us lurching toward another conflict in the Middle East and are weary. Everyone is grumbling about the price of groceries. Democratic leadership keeps insisting that things are fine and actually getting better. Does that seem like a recipe for consistent, overwhelming victory?
Dude this is so simple. Where is the Overton window because of Trump’s victory? It’s fucking off the cliff right because of Trump’s victory. There are conversations taking place now that would have been unimaginable before Trump won. And they are taking place because Trump won.
We can even play the hypothetical. Where would it be if Hillary Clinton won? Fucking easy, it would be further left. Or the hypothetical what it Trump won a second term? Fucking easy again, it would be even further right - because all his rhetoric would be backed up with wins that this is what the people want.
To talk like the Overton window is not affected by election wins is sticking your head in the sand. It’s literally a referendum on what is and what is not acceptable policy and talking points be it social, economic, thinly belief racism, everything. This is so fucking easy to see.
I’m not saying election wins don’t affect it, I’m saying how our elected officials behave while in office affect it even more, both intentionally and unintentionally.
If your opponents are talking about and implementing far-right nonsense, you push against the opposite edge of the window – staying in the cetre just lets them push more to the right. Democrats always running to the center is primarily how we got here in the first place. You are inadvertently arguing that we follow Republicans further to the right as they continue to push against the edge of the window.
Up to now you could have fooled me because you certainly sounded like you were saying elections don’t affect it.
So how they act. Hmmmmmmmmmm. I wonder how Trump acted while in office. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Come the fuck on. You already know exactly how this plays out. Do I have to keep talking? Fine. Trump acted extremely right wing while in office and guess fucking what? It moved fucking right. And he could because he fucking won the election. You’re basically agreeing without even realizing it.
Dems go to the center in order to win. JFC. This is so easy. When you run against an incumbent you have to run from the center. That was Bill Clinton and Biden. Hillary Clinton went a smidge left with the climate change war room and lost. Guess what the Dems learned from that. Hmmmmmmm. They learned to stay in the fucking middle in order to win.
JFC I’m not saying follow Republicans right in any way. What are you smoking. That doesn’t even warrant saying anything else. But fuck I guess I have to keep hammering it home huh. You move left by consistently and overwhelming winning elections. The more you win, the more left you can move. JFC this is easy. I don’t know if I’m going to reply any more because I’m just repeating myself and you don’t understand anything (or you do but want to twist yourself into knots to excuse yourself from not voting. Actually that’s likely.)
Why is it that you claim Democrats need “consistent and overwhelming” victory, when Republicans have managed to shift the Overton window without that?
Yeah it did help some people? It still continues to help a bunch of people and was change so impactful that now, Even republican voters don’t want it repealed.
Half measures is the only thing Democrats can pass with the limited power that they have. That didn’t even have a full 2 years in control of the executive and legislative branch when the ACA was passed, with some Democrats being very conservative. the only way to get the law passed was by getting all members to agree, including the most conservative Members. The public option in particular was one of the things removed from the ACA because of conservative dissent.
It helped insurance companies. The uninsured rate is super low these days but tons of people still can’t afford premiums and our of pocket costs and skip healthcare anyway
And whenever people try to call out conservative Democratic party members for screwing things up they get shouted down in comment threads just like these
One of The pointa of the ACA was to force insurance companies to allow people with preexisting conditions the ability to not get denied by insurances. insurances hate covering people you know will be sick, and love healthy people. they were not happy with this change.
I agree the problems you said need to be resolved still, but that’s for Congress to address now or whenever. Hopefully soon. The ACA wasn’t a bill to help lower rates across the board.
I don’t like conservative Democrats, but I love them more than Republican politicians because they help more. I enjoy progressive Democrats more than both. Can’t speak for other people on Lemmy.