That’s interesting. Why does that standard change so much in the context of presidential candidates compared to every other situation?
Like, if someone was criticizing, say, Fidel Castro, and instead of addressing it I brought up the problems with the Batista regime that he opposed, would that be whataboutism? Just as in a presidential election, there were two realistic possibilities, either Batista stays in power or he’s overthrown. So if it’s valid to divert from criticism of Biden towards problems with his most realistic alternative, Trump, then why would it not be valid to do the same thing with Castro and Batista, or any number of similar cases?
Understood. So as long as I’m talking about the same metric, I’m allowed to bring up how things were before a socialist government came to power and that’s not whataboutism.
When Castro and Batista will be running candidates, we can ask them their stance on Israel and give them cute nicknames, but until then, we can debate the stance of Biden and Trump, the two running candidates and compare their platform.
Their username is redditwanderer which is why I referenced reddit and in debatebro terms arguing against the statement about joe biden not being “well intentioned” because he supports genocide by bringing up how trump is worse is whataboutism.
This would make sense if the argument wasn’t used like Trump wouldn’t do the same. “Genocide joe” is just a bad argument when comparing presidents, not on it’s own.
We can talk about what Biden is doing wrong, but that’s not why they are bringing it up as the only argument they have.
Plus, Trump is going to turn around and enabled a second genocide in Ukraine.
Good intentions? He’s a genocide supporter - hardly a paragon of virtue
where are they implying trump wouldnt do the same? Imagine someone claimed hitler was evil and Roosevelt well intentioned. Someone pointing out that roosevelt was responsible for the unnecessary detonation of two atomic bombs over civilian population centers is not coming to hitlers defense. Roosevelt was a racist scumbag and so is Biden. None of this is a defense of trump.
Please don’t become the thing you likely abhor (Trumpists and alike) by reacting in a knee jerk fashing to things that “insult” your tribalist morals with a variant of the Fascist take “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”.
It’s perfectly rational and reasonable to think that Biden is not a “guy with good intentions” whilst also thinking that Trump is no better, whilst it’s irrational and unreasonable to think that just because one doesn’t like Person A, one must like Person B.
By any human being standards anybody who supports somebody mass murdering children with weapons is a shit person, hence Biden is a shit person. That doesn’t mean Trump is any less shit.
Even by American President Moral standards (which, sadly are way lower than Normal Person Moral standars, when they should be higher), activelly supporting with weapons a nation committing Genocide is pretty bad, though far from novel.
This would make sense if i had made any of those points. Clearly if youre making arguments like “genocide joe” you’re just in bad faith, because it’s genocide presidency atm.
You may not have understood the game yet, but people who aren’t ready to serve the military industrial complex don’t become president.
Be sure to let your block know that Trump’s Genocide™ comes with a side of anti-LGBTQ+ laws. More restrictive laws for abortion, and a neat little thing called Project 2025
Sadly, the Biden administration has done nothing to halt the deluge of anti-LGBTQ+ laws sweeping the nation at the state and local level.
Project 2025 is already being rolled out. And we’ve seen Democrats willing to compromise on chunks of it (the TikTok ban jammed through the House as a condition of Ukraine military funding) even from the majority. As disenfranchisement rates surge in purple-red states, we’re going to see Republicans grow bolder and Democrats more desperate to appeal to the shrinking pool of centrist voters.
So…. To fight this, your suggestion is…… to do nothing. Got it!
Brilliant plan! Let’s call everyone with this new idea to fix problems! I’m sure the AMA would love to know that cancer can be cured by simply doing nothing about it!
To fight this, your suggestion is…… to do nothing.
Honestly, doing nothing by way of a General Strike would have a much more powerful impact on the political system than watching the poll results roll in from your gerrymandered district and disenfranchised neighborhood.
I wish more people would consider Walks-Outs, Sick-Outs, and Administrative Lock-Outs as tools of political change.
The point being that trying to pass that specific sandwish as “gourmet” doesn’t make this less of a contest of shit-sandwish vs double-shit-sandwish.
The take of top poster of this thread - that Biden is an “old man with good intentions” - is quite a different and far more tribalist and propagandistic take than your “the one that’s a bit less enthusiastic genocide supporter”.
Your take is perfectly reasonable, whilst the original take is, as the previous poster pointed out, complete total bollocks for anybody but a complete total sociopath (who would be ok with mass murder) or ultra-tribalist numpty (who is ok with whatever their tribe’s leader supports, no matter how inhumane).
He’s a sweet innocent man who has only ever been a ray of shining light for this country, and he told Netanyahu to stop but Trump said to keep going, so now you have to vote to stop the war in Palestine but you won’t because you’re a bot from China.
A guy that supports a Genocidal ethno-Fascist regime doesn’t have “good intentions”, not even by the lousy standard of the subset of politicians that climb their way into the position of “leader of a major country” - normal human beings don’t give guns to people purposefully murdering tens of thousands of children, starving 2 million people and targetting journalists and medical personnel.
“Not quite as extremelly bad intentions as the other guy” would be a more correct take.
Trying to spin this as a “good guy vs bad guy” is quite a tribalist take on a plague vs pestilence contest.
The difference that you fail to point out is that one guy, Biden, has been (unsuccessfully so far) trying to rein in Bibi and his genocidal policies, where as Trump has told Bibi to hurry up and finish exterminating Palestine. If you can’t see a clear difference you are not paying attention.
Lots of talk, no action: that’s bullshit Political Propaganda 101 when a politician in power wants to do something which most of his voters are strongly against.
His Administration’s actions are exactly the opposite, from the weapons shipments to Israel going around Congress that included 2000lb bombs to UN Vetos and saying that the ICJ shouldn’t even be evaluating the case against Israel for Genocide (clearly this Administration fears a veredict of “guilty”, which means they do believe Israel is likely comitting what amounts to Genocide under International Law).
The non-sociopath path for America would’ve be “Perfect Neutrality” (no action at all), yet Biden choses actual military and diplomatic support, including condemning anti-Genocide demonstrators as “anti-semitic” and condoning the use of police violence against them all the while in this specific subject lying just as shamelessly as Trump.
Most of what biden has done is political posturing. It’s only to placate the voters and for them to think he wants to do something when in fact he’s a die hard zionist.
So the choice is between a senile old man with good intentions and a treasonous, syphalitic crook. And the crook has a non zero chance of winning.
Fuck me, what a shit show.
…that’s also a senile old man.
The odds are currently 60% Trump. What a disaster.
Good intentions? He’s a genocide supporter - hardly a paragon of virtue
So youre saying you think Trump doesn’t support genocide? Or are you saying it doesn’t matter you just wanna bash Biden.
Congress loves genocide, doesn’t matter which president.
I thought whataboutism was like a cardinal sin to redditors
Good thing we’re on lemmy.
But it’s not whataboutism when we compare the two presidential candidates on their platform and actions.
That’s interesting. Why does that standard change so much in the context of presidential candidates compared to every other situation?
Like, if someone was criticizing, say, Fidel Castro, and instead of addressing it I brought up the problems with the Batista regime that he opposed, would that be whataboutism? Just as in a presidential election, there were two realistic possibilities, either Batista stays in power or he’s overthrown. So if it’s valid to divert from criticism of Biden towards problems with his most realistic alternative, Trump, then why would it not be valid to do the same thing with Castro and Batista, or any number of similar cases?
We are talking about a stance of two presidential candidates, the context matter when talking whataboutism.
In this case, the stance of both candidates on Israel is part of their political platform and we’re in the presidential campaign.
Whataboutism would be Republicans defending Trump on its criminal charge by talking about Hillary’s emails. Those two things are unrelated.
Understood. So as long as I’m talking about the same metric, I’m allowed to bring up how things were before a socialist government came to power and that’s not whataboutism.
When Castro and Batista will be running candidates, we can ask them their stance on Israel and give them cute nicknames, but until then, we can debate the stance of Biden and Trump, the two running candidates and compare their platform.
Is that hard to grasp?
Their username is redditwanderer which is why I referenced reddit and in debatebro terms arguing against the statement about joe biden not being “well intentioned” because he supports genocide by bringing up how trump is worse is whataboutism.
I am dense and didn’t catch that.
This would make sense if the argument wasn’t used like Trump wouldn’t do the same. “Genocide joe” is just a bad argument when comparing presidents, not on it’s own.
We can talk about what Biden is doing wrong, but that’s not why they are bringing it up as the only argument they have.
Plus, Trump is going to turn around and enabled a second genocide in Ukraine.
where are they implying trump wouldnt do the same? Imagine someone claimed hitler was evil and Roosevelt well intentioned. Someone pointing out that roosevelt was responsible for the unnecessary detonation of two atomic bombs over civilian population centers is not coming to hitlers defense. Roosevelt was a racist scumbag and so is Biden. None of this is a defense of trump.
Please don’t become the thing you likely abhor (Trumpists and alike) by reacting in a knee jerk fashing to things that “insult” your tribalist morals with a variant of the Fascist take “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”.
It’s perfectly rational and reasonable to think that Biden is not a “guy with good intentions” whilst also thinking that Trump is no better, whilst it’s irrational and unreasonable to think that just because one doesn’t like Person A, one must like Person B.
By any human being standards anybody who supports somebody mass murdering children with weapons is a shit person, hence Biden is a shit person. That doesn’t mean Trump is any less shit.
Even by American President Moral standards (which, sadly are way lower than Normal Person Moral standars, when they should be higher), activelly supporting with weapons a nation committing Genocide is pretty bad, though far from novel.
Ok there chatgpt.
This would make sense if i had made any of those points. Clearly if youre making arguments like “genocide joe” you’re just in bad faith, because it’s genocide presidency atm.
You may not have understood the game yet, but people who aren’t ready to serve the military industrial complex don’t become president.
No matter how you are going to vote, your next president will be a “genocide supporter”.
I’d pick the one that’s a bit less enthusiastic about it.
Canvassing my block with this message to really juice the turn out
Be sure to let your block know that Trump’s Genocide™ comes with a side of anti-LGBTQ+ laws. More restrictive laws for abortion, and a neat little thing called Project 2025
Sadly, the Biden administration has done nothing to halt the deluge of anti-LGBTQ+ laws sweeping the nation at the state and local level.
Project 2025 is already being rolled out. And we’ve seen Democrats willing to compromise on chunks of it (the TikTok ban jammed through the House as a condition of Ukraine military funding) even from the majority. As disenfranchisement rates surge in purple-red states, we’re going to see Republicans grow bolder and Democrats more desperate to appeal to the shrinking pool of centrist voters.
So…. To fight this, your suggestion is…… to do nothing. Got it!
Brilliant plan! Let’s call everyone with this new idea to fix problems! I’m sure the AMA would love to know that cancer can be cured by simply doing nothing about it!
Woooo! Utopia here we come!
Honestly, doing nothing by way of a General Strike would have a much more powerful impact on the political system than watching the poll results roll in from your gerrymandered district and disenfranchised neighborhood.
I wish more people would consider Walks-Outs, Sick-Outs, and Administrative Lock-Outs as tools of political change.
Hilarious. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that today.
Add full context.
“But Trump Worse!”
I think that’ll work. Any more complex than that and you’ll lose them.
That’s funny… I’ve seen MAGA use the exact same argument.
The point being that trying to pass that specific sandwish as “gourmet” doesn’t make this less of a contest of shit-sandwish vs double-shit-sandwish.
The take of top poster of this thread - that Biden is an “old man with good intentions” - is quite a different and far more tribalist and propagandistic take than your “the one that’s a bit less enthusiastic genocide supporter”.
Your take is perfectly reasonable, whilst the original take is, as the previous poster pointed out, complete total bollocks for anybody but a complete total sociopath (who would be ok with mass murder) or ultra-tribalist numpty (who is ok with whatever their tribe’s leader supports, no matter how inhumane).
He’s a sweet innocent man who has only ever been a ray of shining light for this country, and he told Netanyahu to stop but Trump said to keep going, so now you have to vote to stop the war in Palestine but you won’t because you’re a bot from China.
A guy that supports a Genocidal ethno-Fascist regime doesn’t have “good intentions”, not even by the lousy standard of the subset of politicians that climb their way into the position of “leader of a major country” - normal human beings don’t give guns to people purposefully murdering tens of thousands of children, starving 2 million people and targetting journalists and medical personnel.
“Not quite as extremelly bad intentions as the other guy” would be a more correct take.
Trying to spin this as a “good guy vs bad guy” is quite a tribalist take on a plague vs pestilence contest.
But like, you realize how much more manageable pestilence is, right? That’s the whole point. Stuff your both sides shit up your ass
That’s the rational take and I’m sure plenty of people will vote Biden following that rationale.
The top poster’s “pestilence is a good thing” (i.e. Biden is a “good guy”) statement on the other hand is insanelly tribalist and pure fantasy.
Being a Lesser Evil by comparison with an extremelly Evil option is not at all the same as being Good.
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The difference that you fail to point out is that one guy, Biden, has been (unsuccessfully so far) trying to rein in Bibi and his genocidal policies, where as Trump has told Bibi to hurry up and finish exterminating Palestine. If you can’t see a clear difference you are not paying attention.
Lots of talk, no action: that’s bullshit Political Propaganda 101 when a politician in power wants to do something which most of his voters are strongly against.
His Administration’s actions are exactly the opposite, from the weapons shipments to Israel going around Congress that included 2000lb bombs to UN Vetos and saying that the ICJ shouldn’t even be evaluating the case against Israel for Genocide (clearly this Administration fears a veredict of “guilty”, which means they do believe Israel is likely comitting what amounts to Genocide under International Law).
The non-sociopath path for America would’ve be “Perfect Neutrality” (no action at all), yet Biden choses actual military and diplomatic support, including condemning anti-Genocide demonstrators as “anti-semitic” and condoning the use of police violence against them all the while in this specific subject lying just as shamelessly as Trump.
Ok yeah wow Biden sucks so you think he’s worse than the other guy? The guy who thinks we should do more?
Your “you’re not with us so you must be against us” is an old Fascist trope.
Might want to tone down that rabid tribalism as your “arguments” are awfully close to the other guys style of argumentation.
I’m not at all tribalist I’m just not ignorant of the two-sided nature of this election.
Reminds me of the rail union workers trying to strike.
Most of what biden has done is political posturing. It’s only to placate the voters and for them to think he wants to do something when in fact he’s a die hard zionist.
Lol joe biden has no good intentions
Care to provide your receipts?
They are both senile