Your link shows nothing. And no. Not at all propaganda. As a Polish citizen, fuck you. The entirety of my family hates the USSR. Including those who were alive for WW2. No propaganda about it.
No, you see, your grandparents did not encounter both Nazis and soviets. Your parents did not live under communist rule. And most of all you cannot even pin point results of current day ramifications of: 1. Occupation period, 2. Communism.
Totally, propaganda. It is sooo good that they even brainwashed your parents into thinking like they lived in bad communist state. It is so good it feels like there is a rift between generations.
Totally. And would not you know, they also did that in the Baltics and Czech.
Ah yes I forget, my family’s lived experience isn’t real because some jerkwad on lemmy said so. The source of a removed comment on reddit proved otherwise! You’ve converted me, the stories, written history, oral stories that I’ve recorded for my own records/kids/history must all be wrong. Literal hours of first hand accounts and hundreds of pages of documented familial history
must be tainted and not an accurate account of the glorious USSR reign. Fuck… I better delete my grandfathers phone number. It must be getting answered by some deepfake AI voice…
Interesting. Look’s like the “old.reddit” plugin breaks that link. Weird that they have to source a reddit thread rather than the actual study. Red flag for sure that they’re full of shit. https://www.ifop.com/publication/la-nation-qui-a-le-plus-contribue-a-la-defaite-de-lallemagne/
Now is that graph valid… well looking at the “study report”… It’s like 3 pages of content that doesn’t actually outline much of anything and conflates with itself. The report says it was 1200 people 18 and older… the website says sample size of 995 people. The study report says 1200 people sample for the 2015 figures, except it was actually taken in may 2014. And no figures about how many people in the previous years. So I would worry about how “valid” this is to begin with. But let’s look at the content on the original page.
The study even cites the reason this “perception” could have been a thing… (translated, possibly poorly. Check yourself! But my high school french skills only go so far).
Virginie Sansico, a historian specializing in World War II, sees these results as a certain logic: “Under De Gaulle, who was anti-Atlanticist, one was not quick to maintain the memory of the Landing. Moreover, the Communist Party has long helped to value the Soviets, when it had a strong influence. The first State-backed landing commemorations took place only in 1984, organized by Mitterrand: they mark a break in public opinion.”
“In Western Europe, the Allied Landing was crucial, but in the eastern countries, Stalin’s army still played a great deal behind.”
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle’s personal opinions on the matter.
So I’m going to go with, not only does that graph itself mean nothing in this conversation, but the story behind it actually damns the argument they’re trying to make, especially since the matter is well known https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2016.1220367.
I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It’s a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it’s 25%. That’s exactly propaganda.
When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I’ll be ready to talk with you. I’m sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it’s impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.
I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it’s the first link that I could copy-paste, since it’s more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it’s a comment section and not a scientific article.
So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn’t “I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government”. You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren’t Russian, don’t we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!
So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
No… and not even close. The graph led me to the study which has obvious flaws… But even IGNORING Those flaws… they themselves put up an argument of why the sentiment could have been this way… and it was because of the French leadership.
but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole.
Nope, I can make that distinction. The difference here is that both in the past and present they’re monsters. During Communism they shit on Poland, and now they threaten Ukraine… our neighbors. I don’t NEED to make the distinction because it’s both cases. Where as with Gemany I have to make the distinction as they’re not currently ruled by the Nazi party.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2
No… That’s the context of this thread. I kept with the context. The fact that you have to keep shifting goal-posts and cannot continue the discussion under the same pretenses is a huge red flag.
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution
So in 1945… what happened to Poland… since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right?
https://archive.org/details/polandsholocaust00piot/page/88/mode/2up
Or did Russia actually completely fuck Poland (again) by undermining it’s legitimacy? Removing all previous influences and pulled them into the Soviet Union. Going so far as to kill thousands for no fucking reason other than they weren’t communist.
It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it?
Nah, that just historic revisionism that pro-Russian people spout all the time. You seem to love changing time-frames all the time. So here… let’s end this stupidity.
Which time do you want to talk about how Russia tried to fuck Poland? I’ve traced my roots back to the 1500s… I can possibly talk about a number of these wars.
But it’s a general trend that Russia goes out of it’s way to Fuck the Polish people. Yet somehow this is Russophobia! Yeah get out of here.
Great, now you’re not talking even of Russia as a country, but of Russians as a people, and calling them universally monsters, whether they’re peasants under the Russian Empire, workers in the Soviet Union, or citizens under the Russian Federation. Nice way to show everyone here that yes, your whole point here is Russophobia, not legitimate and credible analysis of history and societies.
Again, as I said, impossible to discuss with most Polish people, you’re not arguing from reason but from nationalism and racism. Good night, and good luck
but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole.
Nope, I can make that distinction. The difference here is that both in the past and present they’re monsters.
Nope again… Here’s the real context. We were talking about Russian governments. I stated that I didn’t need to make a distrinction, as it was clear that I was talking about the Russian government both past and present as I then outlined several issues that the government is the only actor in, not the people themselves.
Try again.
not legitimate and credible analysis of history and societies.
And yet you’ve failed to address ANY concern I’ve brought up. Conveniently ignoring every premise I’ve brought up to counter your bullshit.
Again, as I said, impossible to discuss with most Polish people, you’re not arguing from reason but from nationalism and racism. Good night, and good luck
Uh huh… That’s absurdly funny as I’m actually a dual citizen. I’ve made no assumptions about you or your statuses, and yet you’ve made plenty about mine. But somehow I’m nationalist and racist. Look in the mirror. All you’ve done is attributed nonsense to me based on limited information, classical “racism”.
Lets simplify this. Answer either one of these items… Remember both are cited questions.
So in 1945… what happened to Poland… since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right?
How is your graph relevant or meaningful?
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle’s personal opinions on the matter.
Edit: Keep in mind I even took the BEST of your comments… You seem to be under some belief that the USSR never committed atrocities and genocide levels of damage to Poland. You’re already wrong.
So in 1945… what happened to Poland… since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right?
In 1945, the soviets installed a friendly communist government in Poland, while granting it again the right to be an independent country, kind of proving that the objective from the start wasn’t “to conquer Poland because Russians are so evil”, but to not have enemies in their borders. There were purges of anticommunists as everywhere else in the soviet block.
Now I’ll ask you: in 1989 and forwards, with the Solidarity movement. Do you believe that’s a grassroots movement which spawned purely in Poland, with the only goal of freedom and democracy, and wasn’t in any way influenced by other countries? Hint: USA? The 1989 “revolution” was completely autonomous and legitimate and now Poland is finally a completely free state?
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gaulle’s personal opinions on the matter
Funny how the purported opinion of polish citizens about Russia isn’t affected by propaganda, but the french polls are somehow.
You seem to be under some belief that the USSR never committed atrocities
I never claimed anything like that. I’m aware of the Katyn massacre and the purges of anticommunists in the USSR on a widespread level, just not particularly against Poland.
genocide levels of damage to Poland
Sorry, only Polish people actually believe that. There’s no international body as far as I know which makes any claim of genocide towards Polish by the USSR.
Alright we’re done. You can’t even keep your own shit straight.
In 1945, the soviets installed a friendly communist government in Poland
So not a country with it’s own freedom at all then. I thought you said they were free. Imagine telling a country it’s free when the USA installs whatever government it chooses.
I’m aware of the Katyn massacre and the purges of anticommunists in the USSR on a widespread level
Man oh man. I’m so glad that the Katyn massacre affected other countries other than Poland! Feel free to tell the class how this wasn’t “particularly against Poland”.
For those who don’t know…
The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 defenceless Polish military and police officers, border guards, and intelligentsia prisoners of war carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD, at Stalin’s order in April and May 1940.
So basically the death count of Palestine right now… which has been labeled a genocide by the UN and multiple other parties. This is JUST that one event. Not including the USSR’s “anticommunist purge”. Which is estimated to have killed more than 100,000 Poles and Deported Millions more (most of them likely dying as population of Siberia and other places they were sent to didn’t see a matching population boost).
Approximately 250,000 Polish prisoners of war were captured by the USSR during and after the invasion of Poland.
The Soviet forces murdered almost all captured officers, and sent numerous ordinary soldiers to the Soviet Gulag.
In total, the Soviets killed tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war.
The Soviet NKVD executed about 65,000 imprisoned Poles after being subjected to show trials.
Approximately 100,000 Polish citizens were arrested during the two years of Soviet occupation.
the Soviets deported a total of more than 1,200,000 Poles in four waves of mass deportations from the Soviet-occupied Polish territories.
with more than 220,000 people sent primarily to far north and east Russia, including Siberia and Khabarovsk Krai. The second wave of 13 April 1940, consisted of 320,000 people sent primarily to Kazakhstan. The third wave of June–July 1940 totaled more than 240,000. The fourth and final wave occurred in June 1941, deporting 300,000.
rounded up by order of Lavrentiy Beria of the NKVD and deported to Siberia and various gulags in the Soviet Union reached 50,000 in 1945 alone.
According to official data, during the state-controlled expulsion between 1945 and 1946, roughly 1,167,000 Poles left the westernmost republics of the Soviet Union, less than 50% of those who registered for population transfer. Another major ethnic Polish transfer took place after Stalin’s death, in 1955–1959.
Oh and before you say something really fucking stupid…like “Poland wanted to be soviet controlled”.
The Poles and the Soviets re-established diplomatic relations in 1941, following the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement; but the Soviets broke them off again in 1943 after the Polish government demanded an independent examination of the recently discovered Katyn burial pits.The Soviets lobbied the Western Allies to recognize the pro-Soviet Polish puppet government of Wanda Wasilewska in Moscow.
Why would they want to be Soviet controlled when they specifically broke ties with Russia over the Katyn massacre?
Funny how the purported opinion of polish citizens about Russia isn’t affected by propaganda, but the french polls are somehow.
No it’s not funny at all. It’s expected that normal people wouldn’t know about every military operation that occurred during WW2. Specifically the US landing at Normandy and other similar operations. When I talk about the opinion of my family it’s first hand experience of how they lived. There’s a distinct difference in how you would expect a person to know about the events.
And before you comment again…
Fucking 6 million Poles died in WW2. 1/6th of that was Russia.
Andrzej Paczkowski puts the number of Polish deaths due to Soviet repression at 90,000–100,000 of the 1.0 million persons deported and 30,000 executed by the Soviets.[40]
According to Zbigniew S. Siemaszko the total of those deported was 1,646,000 of whom 1,450,000 were residents and refugees (excluding POWs).[41]
According to Franciszek Proch the total of those deported was 1,800,000 of whom 1,050,000 perished.[42]
Millions of poles died to Soviet hands. Mostly on foreign soil that they were forced to. Imagine causing 1/6th of the total losses of a war and then claiming that the Soviets were a godsend!. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_Poland
In 1989, the Soviet Union under the leadership of Mikhail Gorbachev apologized for its crimes against Poland.
But nah! Totally not Genocide at all! And Russia hasn’t even owned up to some extent that they did it! I’m sorry, you’re fucking wrong and this conversation is done.
https://external-preview.redd.it/AhO5ZQ677V5Y9TmxXkvG9PfdoBCeDKR7gFKy84JiGTc.jpg?auto=webp&s=e727011a95ea3bbe987cc313ffdda0e38fae8c64
Your link shows nothing. And no. Not at all propaganda. As a Polish citizen, fuck you. The entirety of my family hates the USSR. Including those who were alive for WW2. No propaganda about it.
No, you see, your grandparents did not encounter both Nazis and soviets. Your parents did not live under communist rule. And most of all you cannot even pin point results of current day ramifications of: 1. Occupation period, 2. Communism.
Totally, propaganda. It is sooo good that they even brainwashed your parents into thinking like they lived in bad communist state. It is so good it feels like there is a rift between generations.
Totally. And would not you know, they also did that in the Baltics and Czech.
Ah yes I forget, my family’s lived experience isn’t real because some jerkwad on lemmy said so. The source of a removed comment on reddit proved otherwise! You’ve converted me, the stories, written history, oral stories that I’ve recorded for my own records/kids/history must all be wrong. Literal hours of first hand accounts and hundreds of pages of documented familial history must be tainted and not an accurate account of the glorious USSR reign. Fuck… I better delete my grandfathers phone number. It must be getting answered by some deepfake AI voice…
Their link shows some infographic in french, for me. I have reposted it.
Interesting. Look’s like the “old.reddit” plugin breaks that link. Weird that they have to source a reddit thread rather than the actual study. Red flag for sure that they’re full of shit. https://www.ifop.com/publication/la-nation-qui-a-le-plus-contribue-a-la-defaite-de-lallemagne/ Now is that graph valid… well looking at the “study report”… It’s like 3 pages of content that doesn’t actually outline much of anything and conflates with itself. The report says it was 1200 people 18 and older… the website says sample size of 995 people. The study report says 1200 people sample for the 2015 figures, except it was actually taken in may 2014. And no figures about how many people in the previous years. So I would worry about how “valid” this is to begin with. But let’s look at the content on the original page.
The study even cites the reason this “perception” could have been a thing… (translated, possibly poorly. Check yourself! But my high school french skills only go so far).
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle’s personal opinions on the matter.
So I’m going to go with, not only does that graph itself mean nothing in this conversation, but the story behind it actually damns the argument they’re trying to make, especially since the matter is well known https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2016.1220367.
I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It’s a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it’s 25%. That’s exactly propaganda.
When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I’ll be ready to talk with you. I’m sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it’s impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.
https://lemmy.saik0.com/post/911795/3275325
feel free to actually address it at your leisure. But you’ve shown that you’re crazy anyway. So I don’t think anyone has high hopes for you.
I shit on both Nazis and Russia. Both then and now.
I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it’s the first link that I could copy-paste, since it’s more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it’s a comment section and not a scientific article.
So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn’t “I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government”. You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren’t Russian, don’t we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!
No… and not even close. The graph led me to the study which has obvious flaws… But even IGNORING Those flaws… they themselves put up an argument of why the sentiment could have been this way… and it was because of the French leadership.
Nope, I can make that distinction. The difference here is that both in the past and present they’re monsters. During Communism they shit on Poland, and now they threaten Ukraine… our neighbors. I don’t NEED to make the distinction because it’s both cases. Where as with Gemany I have to make the distinction as they’re not currently ruled by the Nazi party.
No… That’s the context of this thread. I kept with the context. The fact that you have to keep shifting goal-posts and cannot continue the discussion under the same pretenses is a huge red flag.
So in 1945… what happened to Poland… since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right? https://archive.org/details/polandsholocaust00piot/page/88/mode/2up Or did Russia actually completely fuck Poland (again) by undermining it’s legitimacy? Removing all previous influences and pulled them into the Soviet Union. Going so far as to kill thousands for no fucking reason other than they weren’t communist.
Nah, that just historic revisionism that pro-Russian people spout all the time. You seem to love changing time-frames all the time. So here… let’s end this stupidity.
Which time do you want to talk about how Russia tried to fuck Poland? I’ve traced my roots back to the 1500s… I can possibly talk about a number of these wars.
But it’s a general trend that Russia goes out of it’s way to Fuck the Polish people. Yet somehow this is Russophobia! Yeah get out of here.
Great, now you’re not talking even of Russia as a country, but of Russians as a people, and calling them universally monsters, whether they’re peasants under the Russian Empire, workers in the Soviet Union, or citizens under the Russian Federation. Nice way to show everyone here that yes, your whole point here is Russophobia, not legitimate and credible analysis of history and societies.
Again, as I said, impossible to discuss with most Polish people, you’re not arguing from reason but from nationalism and racism. Good night, and good luck
I will let you know the same will be for any other country that was under soviet occupation.
It is one of life’s great mysteries. Never to be solved. We just cannot connect the dots!
Nope again… Here’s the real context. We were talking about Russian governments. I stated that I didn’t need to make a distrinction, as it was clear that I was talking about the Russian government both past and present as I then outlined several issues that the government is the only actor in, not the people themselves.
Try again.
And yet you’ve failed to address ANY concern I’ve brought up. Conveniently ignoring every premise I’ve brought up to counter your bullshit.
Uh huh… That’s absurdly funny as I’m actually a dual citizen. I’ve made no assumptions about you or your statuses, and yet you’ve made plenty about mine. But somehow I’m nationalist and racist. Look in the mirror. All you’ve done is attributed nonsense to me based on limited information, classical “racism”.
Lets simplify this. Answer either one of these items… Remember both are cited questions.
Edit: Keep in mind I even took the BEST of your comments… You seem to be under some belief that the USSR never committed atrocities and genocide levels of damage to Poland. You’re already wrong.
In 1945, the soviets installed a friendly communist government in Poland, while granting it again the right to be an independent country, kind of proving that the objective from the start wasn’t “to conquer Poland because Russians are so evil”, but to not have enemies in their borders. There were purges of anticommunists as everywhere else in the soviet block.
Now I’ll ask you: in 1989 and forwards, with the Solidarity movement. Do you believe that’s a grassroots movement which spawned purely in Poland, with the only goal of freedom and democracy, and wasn’t in any way influenced by other countries? Hint: USA? The 1989 “revolution” was completely autonomous and legitimate and now Poland is finally a completely free state?
Funny how the purported opinion of polish citizens about Russia isn’t affected by propaganda, but the french polls are somehow.
I never claimed anything like that. I’m aware of the Katyn massacre and the purges of anticommunists in the USSR on a widespread level, just not particularly against Poland.
Sorry, only Polish people actually believe that. There’s no international body as far as I know which makes any claim of genocide towards Polish by the USSR.
deleted by creator
Alright we’re done. You can’t even keep your own shit straight.
So not a country with it’s own freedom at all then. I thought you said they were free. Imagine telling a country it’s free when the USA installs whatever government it chooses.
Man oh man. I’m so glad that the Katyn massacre affected other countries other than Poland! Feel free to tell the class how this wasn’t “particularly against Poland”.
For those who don’t know…
So basically the death count of Palestine right now… which has been labeled a genocide by the UN and multiple other parties. This is JUST that one event. Not including the USSR’s “anticommunist purge”. Which is estimated to have killed more than 100,000 Poles and Deported Millions more (most of them likely dying as population of Siberia and other places they were sent to didn’t see a matching population boost).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939–1946)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Poles_(1944–1946)
Oh and before you say something really fucking stupid…like “Poland wanted to be soviet controlled”.
Why would they want to be Soviet controlled when they specifically broke ties with Russia over the Katyn massacre?
No it’s not funny at all. It’s expected that normal people wouldn’t know about every military operation that occurred during WW2. Specifically the US landing at Normandy and other similar operations. When I talk about the opinion of my family it’s first hand experience of how they lived. There’s a distinct difference in how you would expect a person to know about the events.
And before you comment again…
Fucking 6 million Poles died in WW2. 1/6th of that was Russia.
Millions of poles died to Soviet hands. Mostly on foreign soil that they were forced to. Imagine causing 1/6th of the total losses of a war and then claiming that the Soviets were a godsend!. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_Poland
But nah! Totally not Genocide at all! And Russia hasn’t even owned up to some extent that they did it! I’m sorry, you’re fucking wrong and this conversation is done.