Too often, DSA is dismissed as a purely social democratic organization, and outsiders discount the communist organizing within it. As a Marxist-Leninist DSA caucus, we reject this narrative. DSA is our political home! We in Red Star are communists who believe that DSA is the most effective place to serve
And if you are still a social democrat after the 2020 election cycle, you either weren’t paying attention, and shouldn’t be trusted, or you are hopelessly naive, and shouldn’t be trusted.
Fuck socdems, but I feel like you’re ignoring that not everyone is in your age cohort and experiencing things with the context you were. Also, like, politically disengaged people absolutely should be a target of agitation, what the hell are you talking about?
idk, I can totally see DSA members becoming disengaged just like I can see Dem voters becoming disengaged (but I repeat myself). It’s a natural reaction to putting effort in and not getting anywhere, and the DSA has a long history of not getting anywhere and just diverting energy into the Democratic machine or whatever. I think my original statement stands.
And if you are still a social democrat after the 2020 election cycle, you either weren’t paying attention, and shouldn’t be trusted, or you are hopelessly naive, and shouldn’t be trusted.
What percent of the US population is currently beyond social democrat? We don’t have to win over most people, but we have to win over some people to socialism. Like, IDK, a couple percent? I trust them less if they learn now than if they learned a while ago, but it is still worth educating folks. I’ve seen some folks really change for the better in the time I’ve been in DSA.
Then win them over in an actual communist organization while improving your own understanding of revolutionary theory? Join the PSL. Trying to convince comrades who are not currently active in political organizations to salt the DSA is a massive waste of time. This is bad theory.
If you are already in the DSA and already have connections there, then there is little harm in trying to push them further left, but you should ALSO be seeking a party that is ACTUALLY in line with your ACTUAL values. You are literally fighting against senior members and an anti-communist culture with decades of entrenchment, and to believe that you can change that is also hopelessly naive. The DSA is not a bottom-up organization, the bottom is purposefully disorganized.
The central committee being able to select up to 40 percent of delegates means it’s going to be inflexible and less capable of developing in the long term, even if it starting from a better ideological position.
We are not at the point where flexibility is needed, we are at a point where incredibly basic political education is needed. You are literally making excuses not to join an actual communist organization, when the DSA does not, and can never, actually resemble a communist organization.
Idk what exactly your line of thinking on this is. It seems like you are creating arbitrary purity tests that the whole ‘Join the DSA’ schtick fails to pass muster.
If you are concerned with long term development, then maybe your time would be better spent working within an already existing communist organization that consistently has good opinions to open up to more demcent practices, than an anti-communist organization (which also doesn’t practice demcent organization or scientific socialism) to not only adopt those practices, but ALSO adopt consistently anti-imperialist politics.
Then join another group that better represents your vision of demcent policy and scientific socialism, or fuck, make your own party. My point is that the DSA is not worth a comrades who are not already established members within its time.
I really don’t see how “hey, your org very clearly isn’t democratic” is a purity test. PSL straight up isn’t democratic in internal structure, internal democratic structure is actually important for a party to function in a healthy way.
Then join another group that better represents your vision of demcent policy and scientific socialism, or fuck, make your own party. My point is that the DSA is not worth a comrades who are not already established members within its time.
“join a sect or form another sect” is a deeply unserious suggestion. Like the whole argument here is “there are better orgs out there” and there really isn’t if you actually want to do work with a critical mass.
Most of the actually existing demcent parties weren’t ‘very democratic’ by liberal standards. There was usually political education that was required for even basic entry (outside of provisional) unless you were engaged in direct militancy and then on top of that you were still usually beholden to the party bureaucratic structuring, that would affect how votes were cast. Organizations aren’t perfect, they’re people.
Context matters, when you are attempting maintain an anti-imperialist leftist org in the imperialist core, you have to maintain political cohesion and the only way to do that is through some level of top-down party control. Otherwise ultras (whom may or may not be feds) will come in, and they will ruin your shit. The U.S. feds in particular got really good at disrupting demcent parties in the 70’s and 80’s. Perhaps they have gotten relaxed in their tactics now that the USSR isn’t priority number one, but given the state of Western leftist organizations, it doesn’t take much to completely knock it off base with abit of propaganda about the ‘anti-imperialist’ leadership and you’re back to square one. Most of the principled leftist orgs I know are in siege mode and focused entirely on education and getting people into places where they can be educated. Good or bad, that’s where it’s at atm. Honestly, I’m surprised the CC isn’t in full control of the party management in the PSL.
It’s not about ‘hanging with the cool kids because soc-dems are sooooo annoying’. This isn’t high school. It’s about getting people who are interested into revolutionary education that acknowledges and understands the role of revolutionary defeatism, and the current and past revolutionary proletarian history of the U.S. And socdems, and even most baby leftists I know are not ideologically willing (and likely will never be willing) to sacrifice imperialism (particularly moral) if it comes at the cost of material comfort, which it always does, because that is not why people join (or in particular stay) the DSA.
Look, you clearly want to engage with ‘the mass’ through the DSA and push it left, so go for it (edit: keep at it). Personally, I’ve seen how this works time and again, writ small. I don’t have much hope for it writ large. Maybe times have changed and the context is different. If it works, I’ll gladly shut my mouth and join the DSA (again).
You can say I am making unserious suggestions, but given that some people here riffed that your suggestion is an April Fool’s joke, all suggestions are unserious until they suddenly aren’t.
And if you are still a social democrat after the 2020 election cycle, you either weren’t paying attention, and shouldn’t be trusted, or you are hopelessly naive, and shouldn’t be trusted.
Fuck socdems, but I feel like you’re ignoring that not everyone is in your age cohort and experiencing things with the context you were. Also, like, politically disengaged people absolutely should be a target of agitation, what the hell are you talking about?
That doesn’t mean I need to caucus with them or consider them my allies, like people in the DSA often do.
idk, I can totally see DSA members becoming disengaged just like I can see Dem voters becoming disengaged (but I repeat myself). It’s a natural reaction to putting effort in and not getting anywhere, and the DSA has a long history of not getting anywhere and just diverting energy into the Democratic machine or whatever. I think my original statement stands.
Fair enough. My original statements are incorrect then. But my opinion on the DSA and engaging politically with the DSA remains unchanged.
I think that’s pretty fair; it’s a systemically bad org.
What percent of the US population is currently beyond social democrat? We don’t have to win over most people, but we have to win over some people to socialism. Like, IDK, a couple percent? I trust them less if they learn now than if they learned a while ago, but it is still worth educating folks. I’ve seen some folks really change for the better in the time I’ve been in DSA.
Then win them over in an actual communist organization while improving your own understanding of revolutionary theory? Join the PSL. Trying to convince comrades who are not currently active in political organizations to salt the DSA is a massive waste of time. This is bad theory.
If you are already in the DSA and already have connections there, then there is little harm in trying to push them further left, but you should ALSO be seeking a party that is ACTUALLY in line with your ACTUAL values. You are literally fighting against senior members and an anti-communist culture with decades of entrenchment, and to believe that you can change that is also hopelessly naive. The DSA is not a bottom-up organization, the bottom is purposefully disorganized.
THE PSL isn’t capable of doing demcent or scientific socialism if this is correct? https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/6/mode/2up
The central committee being able to select up to 40 percent of delegates means it’s going to be inflexible and less capable of developing in the long term, even if it starting from a better ideological position.
We are not at the point where flexibility is needed, we are at a point where incredibly basic political education is needed. You are literally making excuses not to join an actual communist organization, when the DSA does not, and can never, actually resemble a communist organization.
I am more concerned about long term development- not having democracy isn’t conducive to scientific socialism, and you aren’t demcent without the dem.
Idk what exactly your line of thinking on this is. It seems like you are creating arbitrary purity tests that the whole ‘Join the DSA’ schtick fails to pass muster.
If you are concerned with long term development, then maybe your time would be better spent working within an already existing communist organization that consistently has good opinions to open up to more demcent practices, than an anti-communist organization (which also doesn’t practice demcent organization or scientific socialism) to not only adopt those practices, but ALSO adopt consistently anti-imperialist politics.
Then join another group that better represents your vision of demcent policy and scientific socialism, or fuck, make your own party. My point is that the DSA is not worth a comrades who are not already established members within its time.
I really don’t see how “hey, your org very clearly isn’t democratic” is a purity test. PSL straight up isn’t democratic in internal structure, internal democratic structure is actually important for a party to function in a healthy way.
“join a sect or form another sect” is a deeply unserious suggestion. Like the whole argument here is “there are better orgs out there” and there really isn’t if you actually want to do work with a critical mass.
Most of the actually existing demcent parties weren’t ‘very democratic’ by liberal standards. There was usually political education that was required for even basic entry (outside of provisional) unless you were engaged in direct militancy and then on top of that you were still usually beholden to the party bureaucratic structuring, that would affect how votes were cast. Organizations aren’t perfect, they’re people.
Context matters, when you are attempting maintain an anti-imperialist leftist org in the imperialist core, you have to maintain political cohesion and the only way to do that is through some level of top-down party control. Otherwise ultras (whom may or may not be feds) will come in, and they will ruin your shit. The U.S. feds in particular got really good at disrupting demcent parties in the 70’s and 80’s. Perhaps they have gotten relaxed in their tactics now that the USSR isn’t priority number one, but given the state of Western leftist organizations, it doesn’t take much to completely knock it off base with abit of propaganda about the ‘anti-imperialist’ leadership and you’re back to square one. Most of the principled leftist orgs I know are in siege mode and focused entirely on education and getting people into places where they can be educated. Good or bad, that’s where it’s at atm. Honestly, I’m surprised the CC isn’t in full control of the party management in the PSL.
It’s not about ‘hanging with the cool kids because soc-dems are sooooo annoying’. This isn’t high school. It’s about getting people who are interested into revolutionary education that acknowledges and understands the role of revolutionary defeatism, and the current and past revolutionary proletarian history of the U.S. And socdems, and even most baby leftists I know are not ideologically willing (and likely will never be willing) to sacrifice imperialism (particularly moral) if it comes at the cost of material comfort, which it always does, because that is not why people join (or in particular stay) the DSA.
Look, you clearly want to engage with ‘the mass’ through the DSA and push it left, so go for it (edit: keep at it). Personally, I’ve seen how this works time and again, writ small. I don’t have much hope for it writ large. Maybe times have changed and the context is different. If it works, I’ll gladly shut my mouth and join the DSA (again).
You can say I am making unserious suggestions, but given that some people here riffed that your suggestion is an April Fool’s joke, all suggestions are unserious until they suddenly aren’t.