There is a world in which it’s not her fault or anyone else’s fault. You can run a flawless campaign and lose for reasons beyond your control, or any other single stakeholder’s control.
Yeah, Picard Principle at play here. You can commit no mistakes and still lose. I can argue that there are a few things that Harris could do better. Americans are stupid and cruel as a whole…you tact too hard to the Left, you piss off the moderate voters and they stay home, vote Third Party, or worse, vote Trump, and if you tact too hard to the Right, you piss off liberal voters, and while they are less likely to vote Trump, you still lose their votes.
Man, we shouldn’t even be having this conversation at all. Trump is a convicted felon. He should be in jail right now, getting ready for the next trials.
I’m amazed that anyone is still buying the “moderate voters” bullshit. Just try to picture an actual human being who’s politics have left them scratching their heads between Harris and Trump. “If only Harris would do a little more for corporations. Oh well, I guess I’ll stick with the racist orange insurrectionist.”
It’s not about moderate voters. If anything it’s about the median voter, but that’s a very different animal. The median voter in this country is wacky as fuck with political opinions that are all over the place. The one thing they almost all have in common is that they hate establishment politicians from both parties. Harris is trying to get their votes by being even more establishment, and it’s going to be a disaster.
The one hope we have is the end of RvW. If that’s woken up enough women voters, then we still can win. Republicans may have screwed themselves so badly that even establishment Democrats can beat them. Let’s hope.
Oh for sure. The people most concerned with Trumps policies are the wealthy who think it might hurt their business.
Porn, import, healthcare industries. Lots of rich people who see they won’t get fair treatment either for their wealth alone like they expect from the duopoly they have been benefitting from for decades.
Its why MAGA think its somehow great cause everyone will burn but somehow they will escape the fire because… God?
I’m amazed that anyone is still buying the “moderate voters” bullshit. Just try to picture an actual human being who’s politics have left them scratching their heads between Harris and Trump. “If only Harris would do a little more for corporations. Oh well, I guess I’ll stick with the racist orange insurrectionist.”
that’s not how moderate voters work, you’re ascribing 100s of years of politics onto the one weird 8 year period, the only moderate voting for trump is a republican. And that’s only because they’re stupid and don’t do research.
Like to be clear, moderates are not swing voters, and swing voters are not moderates, there is no “scratching your head” here. This isn’t a real scenario.
Just to expand upon this a bit, moderate dem voters are voting for kamala, moderate republicans could probably go either way, depends on how much they care about the parties or how much research they’ve done.
Independents will do as they have always done, voting weirdly for no particular reason.
Republicans may have screwed themselves so badly that even establishment Democrats can beat them. Let’s hope.
this is completely true, republicans have basically fractured themselves in half, if not thirds, if trump gets out of the running, the party collapses, simple as that. Dems are in a massive position right now since the harris campaign is pushing for more moderate voters (the majority of the party, and independents as well as straggler moderates on the other side) and in some significant capacity, farther lefties who would literally rather vote for anyone other than trump.
Just try to picture an actual human being who’s politics have left them scratching their heads between Harris and Trump. “If only Harris would do a little more for corporations. Oh well, I guess I’ll stick with the racist orange insurrectionist.”
The more I think about it, the more I realize that economics is a pseudoscience specifically designed to couch terrible actions of governments and corporations behind inevitability arguments.
After all, we cannot have prices rise.
So, we must continue with the sweatshops. We must continue with the factory farms. We must continue to drill baby drill. We must continue to build shoddy houses on flood plains…and on and on and on.
When people say they trust Trump more “with the economy”, it’s perhaps because they know he’ll continue all of the above with a sloppy, sweaty grin and a shitty, little dance.
Then she should have messaged better on Israel. On that particular item I also feel like Netanyahu is on a timeline. I’m not sure he cares about the election though. More like he’s trying to get us pulled into a conflict with Iran before January because Biden can’t stand up to him. If he thinks Biden is just locked by the election then he’ll try to do it this month. Harris’ messaging doesn’t really take that into account in my opinion.
There is no candidate who can win this race that won’t keep writing blank checks for Israel. If anything, Netanyahu wants Trump to win. He is enraged by even the minimal pushback he gets from the Biden administration.
There’s a chance Harris is more like Obama and reigns in everything but iron dome reloads, while actually holding them responsible for settler violence. If your standard is completely disengage from Israel then yeah we aren’t there yet politically. Although shooting at the UN might just fucking do it.
She’s trying to stay neutral, Israel has a right to exist, there must be an immediate cease-fire, etc. This in contrast to Biden parroting the IDF’s PR. She is clearly not as pro Israel as Biden.
Ignoring people instead of, what?.. Railing against voters who are rightfully upset at Harris’s ambivalence about Israel’s genocide?
You think constantly yelling at undecided protestors and blaming them for “Jim Crow V2 - Electric Boogaloo” is going to change their mind?
Get over yourself. The only good that comes from whining about third party candidates spoiling democratic victory is situating the blame if/when Harris loses. It does nothing to convince undecideds, and I’d argue it turns a lot of casual voters off from going to the booth at all.
Might even be radicalizing progressives into tankies, wouldn’t that be exciting.
in defense of not her, she did make a pretty fucking stupid statement. It was worded like ass and not very clear on the message. Idk why she was surprised by the response she garnered.
You can’t just show up on the internet, make a vague political statement to hundreds of thousands of people, and then expect every single one of them to understand it lmao.
Which is wild because most people, especially people her age, have a very similar non-partisan opinion which imo should be encouraged as a sign of critical and independent thought.
I’m going to blame [Undecided] if that happens, but we all know [Undecided] is going to become vapor just after the election and then reroll and alt character masquerading as a victim of their own ignorance come November…
So yeah… we all know they won’t be around to take their bow and own it.
This rhetoric is sure to convince all those Muslims in Michigan whose family members are being blown up by US bombs. Keep up the good work, neolib crusader!
Could do anything, Michigan may not even matter at all. It’s probably more impactful to mobilize moderate voters nationally (there are more of them) than to mobilize a single subset of a Michigan voters.
So yeah… we all know they won’t be around to take their bow and own it.
I’ve noticed that it’s not only undecideds that disappear after the election. It’s also everyone that voted for the last Republican after the inevitable (because they’re terrible at governance) crisis occurs. I remember when George W. Bush’s presidency ended in complete disaster, and suddenly there was nobody that voted for GWB to be found.
Ultimately, if Trump wins, there will be plenty of blame games afterwards, but, in my opinion, they won’t matter. That talk may occupy a lot of paper space in the quaint period between him winning the election and January 20th, 2025, but a second Trump presidency will be such an utter disaster that the talk of “how we got here” will be rendered irrelevant by the urgent need to survive the many self-created crises that it’ll cause.
And I suspect that you’re right, it will suddenly be impossible afterwards to find people who were on the fence about supporting Harris.
What kills me about this is if the neolib dems had taken just a moment at the primary to cast their vote for undecided to show the Dem leadership that genocide was a non negotiable issue they should do the right thing on, it might have worked.
It would have cost absolutely nothing, and we might be coasting to an easy victory right now. Instead we’re here.
But look around this place. Its still the same Blue MAGA here trying to bash peoples head in (now for Harris, then for Biden) as before.
The same people that would demand we drive off a cliff with Biden at the wheel are the ones insisting that we need to support Harris in-spite of her genocide policy, instead of trying to move her on the issue. Like we literally need her to fix her policy or she literally can’t get elected. And its self-evident in the data we have. She’s now losing, not even accounting for the structural biases we should very much expect from RW fuckery and the EC.
Like just come out against genocide. Its fucking easy. It can be a fucking lie. Just fucking lie to us so we can convince enough people to get you elected Harris.
Man. I wonder if we are going to lose. Its definitely possible at this point, but hard to imagine. How awful are our dem candidates to lose to an insane peice of human trash like Trump
Pro fracking. Anti gun control. Pro Electoral College. Pro “entrepreneur” economics. Can sip a beer and barely look disgusted. Pro war. Pro taxation and tariffs. Anti environmental protections for big businesses. And pro death penalty.
I mean we already had early 2000 Republican presidents and the Republicans want someone worse and the Democrats that want change don’t want it either.
Oh no they were definable here before. I’ve got the receipts, the saved threads , etc. I mean hell some are mods. But you know what happened? They dumped those accounts, if they weren’t super well known. if you want names I’ve got names.
Hahaha yeah man people forget how vitriolic and cruel the Blues were when told their candidate might lose.
Refuse to be told they might need to change tactics and double down on slamming face first into a brick wall for the sake of not having to question their beliefs and having someone else to blame.
But they are coming back now again that the “hope” has worn off and nothing feels different. Got to punch down to keep their self cope up.
And you are 💯 correct. I’ve done my best to document it, because to me, its an incredibly important and interesting phenomena. It’s almost exactly what happens to MAGA in their toxic dismissal of a shared reality. I’m going to save this and when I’m a bit more ready with something, I may reach out.
What kills me about this is if the neolib dems had taken just a moment at the primary to cast their vote for undecided to show the Dem leadership that genocide was a non negotiable issue they should do the right thing on, it might have worked.
wait, what’s stopping them? Not voting because it’s not important to them? Sounds like democracy working as intended to me.
Jill Stein is polling at litterally less than measurable numbers.
https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3913&stream=top
“Undecided” represents at least twice the voters Stein appears to be garnering.
People just want someone to be mad at in case Harris loses
Because Harris losing simply could not be her own fault, if it happened
There is a world in which it’s not her fault or anyone else’s fault. You can run a flawless campaign and lose for reasons beyond your control, or any other single stakeholder’s control.
Do you think Harris is running a flawless campaign?
Goodness no.
Yeah, Picard Principle at play here. You can commit no mistakes and still lose. I can argue that there are a few things that Harris could do better. Americans are stupid and cruel as a whole…you tact too hard to the Left, you piss off the moderate voters and they stay home, vote Third Party, or worse, vote Trump, and if you tact too hard to the Right, you piss off liberal voters, and while they are less likely to vote Trump, you still lose their votes.
Man, we shouldn’t even be having this conversation at all. Trump is a convicted felon. He should be in jail right now, getting ready for the next trials.
I’m amazed that anyone is still buying the “moderate voters” bullshit. Just try to picture an actual human being who’s politics have left them scratching their heads between Harris and Trump. “If only Harris would do a little more for corporations. Oh well, I guess I’ll stick with the racist orange insurrectionist.”
It’s not about moderate voters. If anything it’s about the median voter, but that’s a very different animal. The median voter in this country is wacky as fuck with political opinions that are all over the place. The one thing they almost all have in common is that they hate establishment politicians from both parties. Harris is trying to get their votes by being even more establishment, and it’s going to be a disaster.
The one hope we have is the end of RvW. If that’s woken up enough women voters, then we still can win. Republicans may have screwed themselves so badly that even establishment Democrats can beat them. Let’s hope.
It’s not voters she’s courting with her center right politics.
It’s corporate campaign donors who are afraid of Trump’s instability.
Yep
Oh for sure. The people most concerned with Trumps policies are the wealthy who think it might hurt their business.
Porn, import, healthcare industries. Lots of rich people who see they won’t get fair treatment either for their wealth alone like they expect from the duopoly they have been benefitting from for decades.
Its why MAGA think its somehow great cause everyone will burn but somehow they will escape the fire because… God?
Its corruption and insanity everywhere you look.
that’s not how moderate voters work, you’re ascribing 100s of years of politics onto the one weird 8 year period, the only moderate voting for trump is a republican. And that’s only because they’re stupid and don’t do research.
Like to be clear, moderates are not swing voters, and swing voters are not moderates, there is no “scratching your head” here. This isn’t a real scenario.
Just to expand upon this a bit, moderate dem voters are voting for kamala, moderate republicans could probably go either way, depends on how much they care about the parties or how much research they’ve done.
Independents will do as they have always done, voting weirdly for no particular reason.
this is completely true, republicans have basically fractured themselves in half, if not thirds, if trump gets out of the running, the party collapses, simple as that. Dems are in a massive position right now since the harris campaign is pushing for more moderate voters (the majority of the party, and independents as well as straggler moderates on the other side) and in some significant capacity, farther lefties who would literally rather vote for anyone other than trump.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that economics is a pseudoscience specifically designed to couch terrible actions of governments and corporations behind inevitability arguments.
After all, we cannot have prices rise.
So, we must continue with the sweatshops. We must continue with the factory farms. We must continue to drill baby drill. We must continue to build shoddy houses on flood plains…and on and on and on.
When people say they trust Trump more “with the economy”, it’s perhaps because they know he’ll continue all of the above with a sloppy, sweaty grin and a shitty, little dance.
bro what the fuck is this thread, am i on fucking benzos what is happening
How are we defining ‘flawless’, exactly?
All else aside - yea, I actually kinda agree with this, though I get the distinct impression not in the way you mean it.
edit - what happens if it’s the undecided vote that causes harris to lose, not Stein?
Then she should have messaged better on Israel. On that particular item I also feel like Netanyahu is on a timeline. I’m not sure he cares about the election though. More like he’s trying to get us pulled into a conflict with Iran before January because Biden can’t stand up to him. If he thinks Biden is just locked by the election then he’ll try to do it this month. Harris’ messaging doesn’t really take that into account in my opinion.
I’d much rather her do more than message better, but i’d take clear messaging over whatever the fuck we’ve been getting.
She’s trying to stay neutral. It’s not working.
There’s no such thing as neutral - either we’re supporting Israel through their genocide or we’re not.
Putting on my objective hat for a minute, pro Israel voters think the same way. There’s not really a neutral block of voters on this issue.
There is no candidate who can win this race that won’t keep writing blank checks for Israel. If anything, Netanyahu wants Trump to win. He is enraged by even the minimal pushback he gets from the Biden administration.
There’s a chance Harris is more like Obama and reigns in everything but iron dome reloads, while actually holding them responsible for settler violence. If your standard is completely disengage from Israel then yeah we aren’t there yet politically. Although shooting at the UN might just fucking do it.
That’s sure not what she’s running on.
She’s trying to stay neutral, Israel has a right to exist, there must be an immediate cease-fire, etc. This in contrast to Biden parroting the IDF’s PR. She is clearly not as pro Israel as Biden.
She…still loses? I don’t understand your question
I’m asking who you’ll decide to blame, since that seems to be the focus.
If you’re unconcerned with blame then maybe there’s no disagreement here.
Undecided voters are imo always a contemptible lot, but no more this election than any other.
Maybe read this a few times yourself and see if you can spot the problem on your own.
If someone is stupid enough that they need to be flattered into no longer doing stupid things, that makes them all the more contemptible in my eyes.
Yeah why don’t we all just send Harris a harshly worded letter while ignoring people who throw away their vote. Yep absolutely makes sense!
Ignoring people instead of, what?.. Railing against voters who are rightfully upset at Harris’s ambivalence about Israel’s genocide?
You think constantly yelling at undecided protestors and blaming them for “Jim Crow V2 - Electric Boogaloo” is going to change their mind?
Get over yourself. The only good that comes from whining about third party candidates spoiling democratic victory is situating the blame if/when Harris loses. It does nothing to convince undecideds, and I’d argue it turns a lot of casual voters off from going to the booth at all.
Might even be radicalizing progressives into tankies, wouldn’t that be exciting.
No.
Heh.
deleted by creator
in defense of not her, she did make a pretty fucking stupid statement. It was worded like ass and not very clear on the message. Idk why she was surprised by the response she garnered.
You can’t just show up on the internet, make a vague political statement to hundreds of thousands of people, and then expect every single one of them to understand it lmao.
Which is wild because most people, especially people her age, have a very similar non-partisan opinion which imo should be encouraged as a sign of critical and independent thought.
I’m going to blame [Undecided] if that happens, but we all know [Undecided] is going to become vapor just after the election and then reroll and alt character masquerading as a victim of their own ignorance come November…
So yeah… we all know they won’t be around to take their bow and own it.
No, they don’t just disappear - libs just stop caring about them for another 3 years until they’re needed again.
This must be your first election. No, bud. They disappear. Trust me.
Lmao, I don’t even know how to respond to that without sounding like a fossil
Then you should know better.
Know better than the guy saying ‘trust me bro’?
idk, that’s a pretty high bar to clear
We’re too late in the game to bother explaining anything to you. You know what is going on. You won’t get to claim ignorance when this is over.
This rhetoric is sure to convince all those Muslims in Michigan whose family members are being blown up by US bombs. Keep up the good work, neolib crusader!
Whatever you say, MAGA.
listen bro, it’s the will of the voters, if they decide to do that, and they end up with trump being elected, that’s not my problem.
Idk why the harris campaign has to specifically cater towards the muslim population of MI here, seems rather odd to me.
Maybe because that population could win Michigan for Harris.
yeah maybe. It might not do anything either.
Could do anything, Michigan may not even matter at all. It’s probably more impactful to mobilize moderate voters nationally (there are more of them) than to mobilize a single subset of a Michigan voters.
I’ve noticed that it’s not only undecideds that disappear after the election. It’s also everyone that voted for the last Republican after the inevitable (because they’re terrible at governance) crisis occurs. I remember when George W. Bush’s presidency ended in complete disaster, and suddenly there was nobody that voted for GWB to be found.
Ultimately, if Trump wins, there will be plenty of blame games afterwards, but, in my opinion, they won’t matter. That talk may occupy a lot of paper space in the quaint period between him winning the election and January 20th, 2025, but a second Trump presidency will be such an utter disaster that the talk of “how we got here” will be rendered irrelevant by the urgent need to survive the many self-created crises that it’ll cause.
And I suspect that you’re right, it will suddenly be impossible afterwards to find people who were on the fence about supporting Harris.
If you’re going around asking people who they voted for, after any election, expect to be ignored by many.
It’s not that. They’re all active on online forums and in media and then suddenly none of them can be found.
What kills me about this is if the neolib dems had taken just a moment at the primary to cast their vote for undecided to show the Dem leadership that genocide was a non negotiable issue they should do the right thing on, it might have worked.
It would have cost absolutely nothing, and we might be coasting to an easy victory right now. Instead we’re here.
100%
But look around this place. Its still the same Blue MAGA here trying to bash peoples head in (now for Harris, then for Biden) as before.
The same people that would demand we drive off a cliff with Biden at the wheel are the ones insisting that we need to support Harris in-spite of her genocide policy, instead of trying to move her on the issue. Like we literally need her to fix her policy or she literally can’t get elected. And its self-evident in the data we have. She’s now losing, not even accounting for the structural biases we should very much expect from RW fuckery and the EC.
Like just come out against genocide. Its fucking easy. It can be a fucking lie. Just fucking lie to us so we can convince enough people to get you elected Harris.
Man. I wonder if we are going to lose. Its definitely possible at this point, but hard to imagine. How awful are our dem candidates to lose to an insane peice of human trash like Trump
Pro fracking. Anti gun control. Pro Electoral College. Pro “entrepreneur” economics. Can sip a beer and barely look disgusted. Pro war. Pro taxation and tariffs. Anti environmental protections for big businesses. And pro death penalty.
I mean we already had early 2000 Republican presidents and the Republicans want someone worse and the Democrats that want change don’t want it either.
So pretty bad.
TBF, Blue MAGA on lemmy didn’t really come out of the wood work in full force until Biden stepped down.
Now they’re blame shifting before Harris has even lost.
Oh no they were definable here before. I’ve got the receipts, the saved threads , etc. I mean hell some are mods. But you know what happened? They dumped those accounts, if they weren’t super well known. if you want names I’ve got names.
Hahaha yeah man people forget how vitriolic and cruel the Blues were when told their candidate might lose.
Refuse to be told they might need to change tactics and double down on slamming face first into a brick wall for the sake of not having to question their beliefs and having someone else to blame.
But they are coming back now again that the “hope” has worn off and nothing feels different. Got to punch down to keep their self cope up.
That is a great way to out it. They wouldn’t be as emboldened if not for the also toxic moderation in this place .
They were here before.
But once Biden dropped the down votes for criticism of the Democrats got fierce.
That’s all I’m saying.
And you are 💯 correct. I’ve done my best to document it, because to me, its an incredibly important and interesting phenomena. It’s almost exactly what happens to MAGA in their toxic dismissal of a shared reality. I’m going to save this and when I’m a bit more ready with something, I may reach out.
wait, what’s stopping them? Not voting because it’s not important to them? Sounds like democracy working as intended to me.