The easiest way to see if it’s OK is to swap out “men” with any other protected characteristic. If, having done that it suddenly becomes problematic, it was always so and they should’ve known better.
No. You are making an equivalence argument that misses the reality of power dynamics and the context of like centuries of documented social oppression.
No, it’s not an equivalence argument. I didn’t say they were equally wrong or the same thing. Also, nether power dynamics nor oppression make those things right.
You’re telling me that you see no problem with black people saying the same about all white people then?
Yes, I see no problem with black people saying the same about white people; because white people have a manufactured generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping black people poor, underrepresented, and under served in their communities.
Much the same way as how men have manufactured a generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping women underrepresented.
Just because it sucks for me personally doesn’t mean it’s an invalid sentiment.
If you’re a white male, and I think I can safely assume that you are from your comments in this thread, you are the direct beneficiary of a system that has propped you up over literally everyone else. Understanding that system, and your role in it, is critical to trying to finally tear it down to make room for a fair and equitable one.
I didn’t manufacture the system, but I acknowledge it and all I can do now is continue to undermine it by pointing it out constantly.
It’s absolutely right to criticise the system that provides dividends for white people; for men; for straight, cis, able, neurotypical, tall, pretty people; and so on and so on… But even though I don’t fit into all those boxes, I don’t think that gives me the right to attack people that do.
The only person in this entire topic who could remotely be conceived as being attacked is the original poster of that twitter comment… who, if you look at his actual post history, absolutely deserves to be mocked for it.
I’m thinking really about your original comment, you mentioned people saying shit like “men are scum”. I just don’t think it’s helpful and I’m sad that it’s been normalised. I used to say stuff like that, but I just don’t see the difference anymore. I know the power imbalance argument, but even as an impressed minority it just seems like a stupid thing to do… I’ve known and loved many men who are not responsible for the patriarchy, even if they benefit from it.
As the other commenter pointed out - even white men can suffer due to other intersections of identity. Just as women or other less privileged groups can benefit from other aspects…
Anyway, ramble over. I just find it saddening to see men accepting being called “scum” or whatever. Like, no, you aren’t, at least I’d guess if you’ve taken the time to think about this. It’s taking a statistic and trying to extrapolate an individual.
Well, I fundamentally agree that it sucks to call all men scum or trash or whatever. Generalizing tends towards sucking as a whole, and as the target demographic being called scum it doesn’t feel great.
I just try to step back and understand the why. I genuinely do not think most people saying “all men are trash” actually believe that, but they’ve been radicalized by pretty understandable circumstances to feel the need to lash out. It really, really sucks that we have prime examples like the original twitter poster demonstrating exactly where that emotion comes from.
Those statements are very much equivalent in this context, the confusion you have is rooted in a false conclusion. You assert one statement is true, and the other is false. The reality is that both statements are false.
If you have a history of dealing with shitty landlords you may draw a conclusion that every landlord must be shitty. That is objectively false—there are many many landlords from all backgrounds and cultures who will behave differently from each other in virtually every way—but it’s an understandable emotional reaction to your personal experiences.
If you have a history of dealing with shitty women you may draw a conclusion that every woman must be shitty. That is objectively false—there are many many women from all backgrounds and cultures who will behave differently from each other in virtually every way—but it’s an understandable emotional reaction to your personal experiences.
Calling all women parasites is indeed sexist bullshit, but calling all landlords parasites isn’t fundamentally better. Generalizing people trends towards nonsense in most cases.
I like my current landlord, he’s my friend and we live together. When I say Landlords are parasites, I’m just saying something that, according to me, is a relatively descriptive statement. From a functional point of view, they could very well be described as functioning like parasites do.
But that’s not all. Generalization may have different semantic meanings. That’s something political movements have elaborated a lot in the last 60 years. If you read about ACAB, you’ll see quite soon that it’s nowhere near a judgment of all individuals.
But the most important argument follows. I’ll gladly say landlords are parasites or ACAB. There are many other variants I’ll never say. One could say it’s arbitrary but it’s far from it, imo. Generalizing on people who are subjects of systematic violence is furthering said violence. Generalizing about powerful interest who are in position to use individualisation and scapegoating of one or their members to ensure the continuation of their power cannot, and it’s not an ideological point, it’s a matter of social science for me, be said to be identical.
I recommend reading Howard Becker’s Whose side are we one, a different, but close and related, demonstration.
No, really that doesn’t make it ok. You’re generalizing half the population. It’s not my fault that other people are and have been trash, it’s not my fault that I was born male, and it sure feels great to be generalized with the assholes when I wish every night to just magically wake up with a cis woman’s body (for various reasons am not transitioning and run around as male presenting).
No. You are making an equivalence argument that misses the reality of power dynamics and the context of like centuries of documented social oppression.
Edit: Fuck I didn’t see erin beat me to it.
No, it’s not an equivalence argument. I didn’t say they were equally wrong or the same thing. Also, nether power dynamics nor oppression make those things right.
You’re telling me that you see no problem with black people saying the same about all white people then?
Yes, I see no problem with black people saying the same about white people; because white people have a manufactured generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping black people poor, underrepresented, and under served in their communities.
Much the same way as how men have manufactured a generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping women underrepresented.
Just because it sucks for me personally doesn’t mean it’s an invalid sentiment.
But I didn’t manufacture that and neither did you. It also, intentionally, ignores every single other intersection a white person could have.
Don’t worry, the sentiment invalidates itself. That kind of backwards bougouise feminism died in the 80s and should’ve stayed that way.
If you’re a white male, and I think I can safely assume that you are from your comments in this thread, you are the direct beneficiary of a system that has propped you up over literally everyone else. Understanding that system, and your role in it, is critical to trying to finally tear it down to make room for a fair and equitable one.
I didn’t manufacture the system, but I acknowledge it and all I can do now is continue to undermine it by pointing it out constantly.
It’s absolutely right to criticise the system that provides dividends for white people; for men; for straight, cis, able, neurotypical, tall, pretty people; and so on and so on… But even though I don’t fit into all those boxes, I don’t think that gives me the right to attack people that do.
The only person in this entire topic who could remotely be conceived as being attacked is the original poster of that twitter comment… who, if you look at his actual post history, absolutely deserves to be mocked for it.
I’m thinking really about your original comment, you mentioned people saying shit like “men are scum”. I just don’t think it’s helpful and I’m sad that it’s been normalised. I used to say stuff like that, but I just don’t see the difference anymore. I know the power imbalance argument, but even as an impressed minority it just seems like a stupid thing to do… I’ve known and loved many men who are not responsible for the patriarchy, even if they benefit from it.
As the other commenter pointed out - even white men can suffer due to other intersections of identity. Just as women or other less privileged groups can benefit from other aspects…
Anyway, ramble over. I just find it saddening to see men accepting being called “scum” or whatever. Like, no, you aren’t, at least I’d guess if you’ve taken the time to think about this. It’s taking a statistic and trying to extrapolate an individual.
Well, I fundamentally agree that it sucks to call all men scum or trash or whatever. Generalizing tends towards sucking as a whole, and as the target demographic being called scum it doesn’t feel great.
I just try to step back and understand the why. I genuinely do not think most people saying “all men are trash” actually believe that, but they’ve been radicalized by pretty understandable circumstances to feel the need to lash out. It really, really sucks that we have prime examples like the original twitter poster demonstrating exactly where that emotion comes from.
Thank you.
All landlords are parasites. All women are parasites.
One is rather true, in a metaphorical way. The other is a sexist, misogynistic slur.
I’m never quite convinced by this equivalence argument.
Those statements are very much equivalent in this context, the confusion you have is rooted in a false conclusion. You assert one statement is true, and the other is false. The reality is that both statements are false.
If you have a history of dealing with shitty landlords you may draw a conclusion that every landlord must be shitty. That is objectively false—there are many many landlords from all backgrounds and cultures who will behave differently from each other in virtually every way—but it’s an understandable emotional reaction to your personal experiences.
If you have a history of dealing with shitty women you may draw a conclusion that every woman must be shitty. That is objectively false—there are many many women from all backgrounds and cultures who will behave differently from each other in virtually every way—but it’s an understandable emotional reaction to your personal experiences.
Calling all women parasites is indeed sexist bullshit, but calling all landlords parasites isn’t fundamentally better. Generalizing people trends towards nonsense in most cases.
Three objections :
I like my current landlord, he’s my friend and we live together. When I say Landlords are parasites, I’m just saying something that, according to me, is a relatively descriptive statement. From a functional point of view, they could very well be described as functioning like parasites do.
But that’s not all. Generalization may have different semantic meanings. That’s something political movements have elaborated a lot in the last 60 years. If you read about ACAB, you’ll see quite soon that it’s nowhere near a judgment of all individuals.
But the most important argument follows. I’ll gladly say landlords are parasites or ACAB. There are many other variants I’ll never say. One could say it’s arbitrary but it’s far from it, imo. Generalizing on people who are subjects of systematic violence is furthering said violence. Generalizing about powerful interest who are in position to use individualisation and scapegoating of one or their members to ensure the continuation of their power cannot, and it’s not an ideological point, it’s a matter of social science for me, be said to be identical.
I recommend reading Howard Becker’s Whose side are we one, a different, but close and related, demonstration.
No, really that doesn’t make it ok. You’re generalizing half the population. It’s not my fault that other people are and have been trash, it’s not my fault that I was born male, and it sure feels great to be generalized with the assholes when I wish every night to just magically wake up with a cis woman’s body (for various reasons am not transitioning and run around as male presenting).