A huge chunk of the American carceral system is people in jail awaiting trial. According to the Prison Policy Institute 70% of the population of city and county jails are pretrial detentions. They can’t afford bail so they are stuck in jail without ever being convicted of anything.
I don’t think this statistic should be that alarming. One of the main roles of the jail is to be the place where suspects are held pretrial. If convicts were taken to prison directly from the courthouse immediately after conviction, and if short term sentences were served in prison rather than jail, the percentage of unconvinced people in jail would have risen to 100% - and note that these are two technical changes that don’t worsen the incarceration problem.
And there is a problem. I’m not saying there isn’t. I’m just saying this number is not a good indicator of it.
People were sent to concentration camps on the basis of administrative decisions of the executive branch of government. They weren’t awaiting anything, they were just locked up.
When waiting for a trial can take a year to defend against an accusation that would typically carry a sentence in months, and when spending time in prison is one of the best predictors for whether someone will be imprisoned again later in life, the waiting thing is a distinction, but the difference it makes is uncomfortably close to being academic. Reminder: these are innocent people in the eyes of the law, so the decision to lock them up is made as an administrative decision (how high to set bail and how the court is scheduled) by the judicial branch, not by a decision that is based in the practice of justice
They’re both awful things, but it’s important that the distinction is made.
Some places have been trying to do bail reform, but I believe the federal government has basically quashed that this year… Or are, at the very least, fighting very hard against it.
It’s a distinction without a difference. At the end of the day both groups are still random people the government has said “These are bad people trust us,” and have not proven it. Pretrial detention still definitionally means they’re being held without trial. It’s just been decided it’s okay in one situation and not the other. What does it matter if someone is theoretically “awaiting trial” if in practice they are just waiting the rest of their lives?
Yes, the immigration detentions are worse. But both are still fundamentally denying due process to those detained.
The fuck do you mean am I for real? Yes let’s compare this group of people getting arrested by “law enforcement officers” because “trust me bro, they’re criminals and need to be deported,” with this group of people being arrested by law enforcement officers because “trust me bro, they’re criminals and need to go to prison,” shall we?
One group gets no trial, the other gets pressured into pleading guilty regardless of whether they actually did the thing they were arrested for, gets as little as 5 minutes with their public defender depending on the location, and can still end up losing everything even if they’re acquitted because of how long they were held for. Oh yeah, that’s due process alright.
Of course ICE is the battle we need to fight right now, but let’s not fucking pretend that this is some fresh horror we’ve never seen before. They just feel like they can get away with being more bold with it because “they’re illegals” where they don’t feel that way with poor people yet. They still feel the need to pretend we get due process.
Either you’re not paying attention to what is currently happening, or you’re pushing some kind of agenda.
It is not a distinction without a difference, that’s fucking absurd. Both things are awful. One could even argue that they’re equally awful. Go for it. I’m not ranking awfulness here, just making distinctions.
What is happening right now is different and it’s fucking important that people understand this.
A huge chunk of the American carceral system is people in jail awaiting trial. According to the Prison Policy Institute 70% of the population of city and county jails are pretrial detentions. They can’t afford bail so they are stuck in jail without ever being convicted of anything.
I don’t think this statistic should be that alarming. One of the main roles of the jail is to be the place where suspects are held pretrial. If convicts were taken to prison directly from the courthouse immediately after conviction, and if short term sentences were served in prison rather than jail, the percentage of unconvinced people in jail would have risen to 100% - and note that these are two technical changes that don’t worsen the incarceration problem.
And there is a problem. I’m not saying there isn’t. I’m just saying this number is not a good indicator of it.
This is NOT the same thing.
People were sent to concentration camps on the basis of administrative decisions of the executive branch of government. They weren’t awaiting anything, they were just locked up.
When waiting for a trial can take a year to defend against an accusation that would typically carry a sentence in months, and when spending time in prison is one of the best predictors for whether someone will be imprisoned again later in life, the waiting thing is a distinction, but the difference it makes is uncomfortably close to being academic. Reminder: these are innocent people in the eyes of the law, so the decision to lock them up is made as an administrative decision (how high to set bail and how the court is scheduled) by the judicial branch, not by a decision that is based in the practice of justice
They’re both awful things, but it’s important that the distinction is made.
Some places have been trying to do bail reform, but I believe the federal government has basically quashed that this year… Or are, at the very least, fighting very hard against it.
It’s a distinction without a difference. At the end of the day both groups are still random people the government has said “These are bad people trust us,” and have not proven it. Pretrial detention still definitionally means they’re being held without trial. It’s just been decided it’s okay in one situation and not the other. What does it matter if someone is theoretically “awaiting trial” if in practice they are just waiting the rest of their lives?
Yes, the immigration detentions are worse. But both are still fundamentally denying due process to those detained.
Absurd… Are you got real?
The fuck do you mean am I for real? Yes let’s compare this group of people getting arrested by “law enforcement officers” because “trust me bro, they’re criminals and need to be deported,” with this group of people being arrested by law enforcement officers because “trust me bro, they’re criminals and need to go to prison,” shall we?
One group gets no trial, the other gets pressured into pleading guilty regardless of whether they actually did the thing they were arrested for, gets as little as 5 minutes with their public defender depending on the location, and can still end up losing everything even if they’re acquitted because of how long they were held for. Oh yeah, that’s due process alright.
Of course ICE is the battle we need to fight right now, but let’s not fucking pretend that this is some fresh horror we’ve never seen before. They just feel like they can get away with being more bold with it because “they’re illegals” where they don’t feel that way with poor people yet. They still feel the need to pretend we get due process.
Either you’re not paying attention to what is currently happening, or you’re pushing some kind of agenda.
It is not a distinction without a difference, that’s fucking absurd. Both things are awful. One could even argue that they’re equally awful. Go for it. I’m not ranking awfulness here, just making distinctions.
What is happening right now is different and it’s fucking important that people understand this.