Has it ever occured to you that those abuses happen because of people’s attempts to delegitimize it? Despite attempts to make it illegal or to otherwise shame those who participate in it, it hasn’t ceased to exist for as long as humanity has existed. Prohibition didn’t make people stop drinking alcohol, it just created more crime and unsafe scenarios. Drug use being illegal doesn’t stop overdose. The fentanyl crisis is a direct result of drugs only being available from non-legitimate sources. Onlyfans has created a very safe space for sex work. It’s not perfect but it is leaps and bounds better than an alternative where it is illegal.
I believe your experience that everyone you met on the streets found it to be degrading. Have you ever thought that was because of the environment that you were in? Sex work performed by homeless people usually only exists because no legal alternative exists for their clients. Also it becomes a last resort for income for desperate people and as a result can put them in not safe scenarios.
As far as it being degrading, that’s also attributed to the unsafe conditions that many women and men are forced to work under. It really isn’t hard to find sex workers who are proud of their life style and live happy lives due to their success in the industry. Unfortunately they are in the minority because of all of my previous points listed. Most of the negatives that you talk about are a direct result of your and others shaming, not anything that is inherently wrong or immoral with sex work itself.
Has it ever occured to you that those abuses happen because of people’s attempts to delegitimize it?
No, I dont believe that anyone is trying to DE-legitimize it, because its never been legitimate. Yes, prostitution has been around for a long time, but its never been an honorable way to make money, its always been looked down on because people know inherently that selling your body for money isn’t good for anyone. Its soul crushing and degrading and no matter how many ‘happy’ OnlyFans out there, no one WANTS to continue doing it into their later adult years. There are lots of mental gymnastics people do to try and accept all the bad choices theyve made but that doesnt make them good choices, it just helps them survive.
No, I dont believe that anyone is trying to DE-legitimize it, because its never been legitimate. Yes, prostitution has been around for a long time…
It’s literally called “the oldest profession.”
but its never been an honorable way to make money, its always been looked down on because people know inherently that selling your body for money isn’t good for anyone.
There’s never been an honorable way to make money. We sell ourselves to others so that we can survive. There’s nothing honorable about it. You’re only OK with selling certain things and not others. Selling your health, youth, time, etc. is fine in your opinion, but selling sex isn’t for some reason?
It’s also not always been looked down on. You just have a short and narrow view of history. Check out the wiki page for the history of prostitution. It’s wide and varied. In particular, Christians and Muslims have an issue with it. I’m assuming you think that your understanding is the understanding that has always been, and that it must be innately human because you must be correct. I’d recommend you reconsider that belief. Many people, now and in the past, disagree with you, and you shouldn’t do things like voting with the intent to push your view on others.
No, I vote to make things better for everyone, not because I think people are going against my morals. Get out of here with that. I vote to protect people’s rights to do things I don’t agree with, if they don’t harm anyone/anything else. No one should be voting because they want to push their morals on others. That’s authoritarian.
Why do you think your morals are superior to others? You can disagree with them, and that’s great. To think you should remove their freedoms because you don’t want to do something is wrong. Follow your moral code. Don’t force others to follow it. If you want, try to convince them. Don’t use force because you’re an asshole with a superiority complex. If your morals actually are better then people will agree with you without the need to pass laws restricting freedoms.
Its nice that you believe that you vote to protect OTHER people’s rights, but when you are up against an issue that affects you directly, you definitely dont. If you were gay and the government wanted to bring in a bill to ban gay marriage you wouldn’t vote to protect the rights of the people who have a religious objection to gay marriage, you would vote against it.
ALL morals are relative. With the argument you are giving you are LITERALLY telling me that YOUR morals are superior to mine. Guess what? They’re just different and no better than mine.
We have a democratic system. Everyone votes the way they choose, majority wins. Welcome to the real world.
If you were gay and the government wanted to bring in a bill to ban gay marriage you wouldn’t vote to protect the rights of the people who have a religious objection to gay marriage, you would vote against it.
That’s literally what legalizing it is. No one is forcing you to be gay married. You can object if you want. I’m against restricting others freedoms. That means I support legalizing gay marriage, even if I don’t want to be gay married, because it allows for people to choose what thay want rather than forcing a certain belief on them. I don’t know anywhere that forces gay marriage, but you’re perfectly fine enforcing straight-only marriage I guess. A little hypocritical, no?
ALL morals are relative. With the argument you are giving you are LITERALLY telling me that YOUR morals are superior to mine. Guess what? They’re just different and no better than mine.
Good. You aren’t a moral absolutist at least. No, I’m telling you that your morals aren’t absolute and shouldn’t be forced on others. Follow them yourself. If others want to, they can choose to. Forcing them on people isn’t about morality; it’s about authority.
We have a democratic system. Everyone votes the way they choose, majority wins. Welcome to the real world.
We have a democratic system that explicitly says someone’s beliefs shouldn’t be forced in others (assuming you’re in the US). We literally have in our constitution that no religion shall be enforced. Sure, we have people who want to destroy that an enact authoritarian rule, because they think their beliefs are better than others, so this might not always be true, but for now it is.
I’m telling you that your morals aren’t absolute and shouldn’t be forced on others. Follow them yourself. If others want to, they can choose to. Forcing them on people isn’t about morality; it’s about authority.
We agree on morals by majority. Everyone agrees that murder is wrong so we make laws stating that and we punish those who dont follow. Do you call that ‘forcing morals on others’? No, because almost everyone agrees murder is wrong. But what about physical assault? Still bad. We make laws against that. What if its just slapping someone? Likely still harmful, so there are laws against that. What if its just spitting on their shoes? Might be assault might not be. What if its just calling them a name? Highly depends on what was said and in what context but obviously not everyone who calls someone a name is charged. What if its just giving them the finger? Not likely a charge. What if its just a sneer? Highly unlikely its chargeable offence.
My point is that we ALL decide at some point when harm is done and we make laws to support that and then we FORCE others to comply with it even if its not THEIR personal standard about whats considered harmful. Yes thats authority, thats how society works.
We sure as hell don’t. I don’t think something is moral or not because others agree with it or not. That’d be a pretty fucked up world if many people believed that.
Everyone agrees that murder is wrong so we make laws stating that and we punish those who dont follow. Do you call that ‘forcing morals on others’?
No, because it’s protecting other people’s freedom. A murderer prevents others from having their own freedom. You can hurt yourself all you want, but not others without their consent. This isn’t morality, it’s (negative) freedom. It’s measurable, where morality isn’t.
All the other stuff you listed proves it’s not about morality. Most people would agree it’s immoral to do most of those acts. However, it’s (usually) only illegal when it effects other people’s rights. Sometimes people argue things enfringe on their rights to push morality too, like requiring certain clothing for example. The argument they make is always about rights though, not morality (though they may try to sway the public with a morality argument). For example, abortion. It wasn’t made illegal in a bunch of places for moral reasons. It was made illegal “to protect the rights of the zygote/fetus/baby.”
Sex work doesn’t effect anyone else’s freedom. You can choose to not engage with it if you want. Making it illegal does effect people’s freedom, and also creates a hazardous environment for sex workers. If you actually want to solve the things you’re complaining about, the only solution is to legalize it and install protections. If you’re arguing for making it illegal then you’re the one causing the issues for these sex workers. You are responsible for them not having protections, not having mental and physical healthcare, fearing going to the police when something happens, and all the rest.
Selling your health, youth, time, etc. is fine in your opinion, but selling sex isn’t for some reason?
You honestly think that selling your time to make money is the same as selling your BODY to make money? Please tell me your not serious about that.
There are barter systems where people exchange their labor for goods without any money involved, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find a system where people sell their body for goods on regular basis.
So exactly how does one provide for one’s need for food clothing and shelter if they DONT want to sell their time? Live in the woods and forage for berries?
Again, selling your body is working in manual labor more than sex work. You literally destroy your body for it. Sex work doesn’t.
There are barter systems where people exchange their labor for goods without any money involved, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find a system where people sell their body for goods on regular basis.
I’ve seen people need surgery for their knees by 30 because they sold their body to lift cargo. It happens incredibly regularly. As for sex work, also incredibly regularly, which I wouldn’t describe as “selling your body” but it is using your body for a service. It’s not being damaged or losing value though.
So exactly how does one provide for one’s need for food clothing and shelter if they DONT want to sell their time? Live in the woods and forage for berries?
OK, first you’re implying I said you can’t sell yourself for money. I didn’t say that. You did. I just pointed out that we all do it. You only had an issue with it in regard to sex work, but for some reason don’t care for other work that takes so much more from us for less in return.
Second, there are alternative systems to capitalism that don’t require you to self yourself for survival. It isn’t a requirement for life. To see how capitalists see us, the people at work how interact with us are called human resource managers. We’re a resource to be consumed and spent to generate profit for the comoany. You’re just diluded into thinking that’s fine, but people can’t choose to do the same with sex work. Why not?
I wouldn’t describe as “selling your body” but it is using your body for a service. It’s not being damaged or losing value though.
Thats where I completely disagree. There is a big emotional and psychological toll to be used by another person for money. Yeah, in 20 years your knees might be in better shape than a factory worker, but your emotions, your self esteem, your mental health will not be. The knees can be fixed with surgery. How do you fix crippled mental health? There are people who spend their lives in therapy because mommy yelled at them a lot when they were young. You think someone who has been used over and over by other people for their own pleasure is going to be in better shape than that emotionally damaged person? Absolutely not. NO ONE comes out of sex work undamaged - its literally the price of participation.
There is a big emotional and psychological toll to be used by another person for money.
Again, you’re literally doing this if you have a job. I don’t disagree. You just only have an issue with sex. If you think this is valid, explain why sex is different.
How do you fix crippled mental health?
That’s part of why we have so many issues in the US. People are selling their lives to corporations to survive, and they’re given no mental Healthcare to help them. Mental Healthcare is a thing though and it can be provided.
You think someone who has been used over and over by other people for their own pleasure is going to be in better shape than that emotionally damaged person? Absolutely not. NO ONE comes out of sex work undamaged - its literally the price of participation.
No one comes out of capitalism undamaged. There are some porn stars and brothel workers (with protections) who seem to be perfectly healthy though. It’s the lack of safety nets and protections that cause issues. The same thing is true for factories before we had safety nets, or any other kind of work. Sex work is work, and all work needs protections so workers aren’t abused and taken advantage of. Without it, of course there are issues. Its not because of the type of work though, it’s the lack of protections.
You have a weird issue with sex, where you think it’s “being used” if you have sex. I haven’t done it for money, but I’ve had plenty of loveless sex, and it doesn’t have any magical powers. It’s just an act.
We’re all being used every day. There’s no difference when it’s sex. You keep saying there is, but providing no reasoning other than just that it’s true because you believe it’s true.
There are a lot of sex workers who get through it all and are as perfectly healthy as the rest of us, sometimes more. Yes, there are some who don’t, but that’s true for everything. Sex work has the double issue of a lot of it not being legal and having no protections, and also attracting people who aren’t as well already. We should be doing more to make it legal so we can help them, not the opposite. Making it illegal doesn’t make it go away, it only ensures the issues you’re pointing out are more common.
We’re all being used every day. There’s no difference when it’s sex.
Dude, I worked in an office job for more than 10 years. I didnt feel used. I didnt feel like my self esteem was compromised. I didnt feel like I had to give up my dignity for pay. Never once did anyone ask me to take off my clothes and insert X object into one of my holes so they could watch me and jerk off.
You have a very warped idea of what a regular job is like compared to sex work, but ok go ahead and convince yourself that they’re exactly the same. Dear god.
Dude, I worked in an office job for more than 10 years. I didnt feel used. I didnt feel like my self esteem was compromised. I didnt feel like I had to give up my dignity for pay.
Cool. You’re in the same boat as a lot of sex workers then! However, you were used. It’s called human resources because they see us as resources to use. You can not feel used doing your work, and the same goes for all work, but if you’re doing it because you have to to survive then you are being used. You’re a whore for money. You just might be doing other acts than sex, but there’s nothing more honorable about it.
Never once did anyone ask me to take off my clothes and insert X object into one of my holes so they could watch me and jerk off.
What is your problem? Is that the only way you can lose dignity in your opinion? It should be doing some you find demeaning, which is an opinion. I think people who are sycophants for people like Musk, Bezos, Trump, etc. are much less respectable than people doing sex work. We’re all whores though. They wave cash in front of our faces and we beg them for it.
You have a very warped idea of what a regular job is like compared to sex work…
No, you have a very warped idea of what sex work is. Legal sex work the workers choose their partners and get to say no to anyone or anything they want. Sure, they’ll make more money for doing certain acts, just like any other job. They aren’t the same. Just like a construction worker isn’t the same as a software engineer. They aren’t worse though. You look down on them, but you haven’t given a reason for what makes it worse inherently.
Has it ever occured to you that those abuses happen because of people’s attempts to delegitimize it? Despite attempts to make it illegal or to otherwise shame those who participate in it, it hasn’t ceased to exist for as long as humanity has existed. Prohibition didn’t make people stop drinking alcohol, it just created more crime and unsafe scenarios. Drug use being illegal doesn’t stop overdose. The fentanyl crisis is a direct result of drugs only being available from non-legitimate sources. Onlyfans has created a very safe space for sex work. It’s not perfect but it is leaps and bounds better than an alternative where it is illegal.
I believe your experience that everyone you met on the streets found it to be degrading. Have you ever thought that was because of the environment that you were in? Sex work performed by homeless people usually only exists because no legal alternative exists for their clients. Also it becomes a last resort for income for desperate people and as a result can put them in not safe scenarios.
As far as it being degrading, that’s also attributed to the unsafe conditions that many women and men are forced to work under. It really isn’t hard to find sex workers who are proud of their life style and live happy lives due to their success in the industry. Unfortunately they are in the minority because of all of my previous points listed. Most of the negatives that you talk about are a direct result of your and others shaming, not anything that is inherently wrong or immoral with sex work itself.
No, I dont believe that anyone is trying to DE-legitimize it, because its never been legitimate. Yes, prostitution has been around for a long time, but its never been an honorable way to make money, its always been looked down on because people know inherently that selling your body for money isn’t good for anyone. Its soul crushing and degrading and no matter how many ‘happy’ OnlyFans out there, no one WANTS to continue doing it into their later adult years. There are lots of mental gymnastics people do to try and accept all the bad choices theyve made but that doesnt make them good choices, it just helps them survive.
It’s literally called “the oldest profession.”
There’s never been an honorable way to make money. We sell ourselves to others so that we can survive. There’s nothing honorable about it. You’re only OK with selling certain things and not others. Selling your health, youth, time, etc. is fine in your opinion, but selling sex isn’t for some reason?
It’s also not always been looked down on. You just have a short and narrow view of history. Check out the wiki page for the history of prostitution. It’s wide and varied. In particular, Christians and Muslims have an issue with it. I’m assuming you think that your understanding is the understanding that has always been, and that it must be innately human because you must be correct. I’d recommend you reconsider that belief. Many people, now and in the past, disagree with you, and you shouldn’t do things like voting with the intent to push your view on others.
Dear lord, have you heard of this thing called democracy? Thats EXACTLY why we vote.
No, I vote to make things better for everyone, not because I think people are going against my morals. Get out of here with that. I vote to protect people’s rights to do things I don’t agree with, if they don’t harm anyone/anything else. No one should be voting because they want to push their morals on others. That’s authoritarian.
Why do you think your morals are superior to others? You can disagree with them, and that’s great. To think you should remove their freedoms because you don’t want to do something is wrong. Follow your moral code. Don’t force others to follow it. If you want, try to convince them. Don’t use force because you’re an asshole with a superiority complex. If your morals actually are better then people will agree with you without the need to pass laws restricting freedoms.
Its nice that you believe that you vote to protect OTHER people’s rights, but when you are up against an issue that affects you directly, you definitely dont. If you were gay and the government wanted to bring in a bill to ban gay marriage you wouldn’t vote to protect the rights of the people who have a religious objection to gay marriage, you would vote against it.
ALL morals are relative. With the argument you are giving you are LITERALLY telling me that YOUR morals are superior to mine. Guess what? They’re just different and no better than mine.
We have a democratic system. Everyone votes the way they choose, majority wins. Welcome to the real world.
That’s literally what legalizing it is. No one is forcing you to be gay married. You can object if you want. I’m against restricting others freedoms. That means I support legalizing gay marriage, even if I don’t want to be gay married, because it allows for people to choose what thay want rather than forcing a certain belief on them. I don’t know anywhere that forces gay marriage, but you’re perfectly fine enforcing straight-only marriage I guess. A little hypocritical, no?
Good. You aren’t a moral absolutist at least. No, I’m telling you that your morals aren’t absolute and shouldn’t be forced on others. Follow them yourself. If others want to, they can choose to. Forcing them on people isn’t about morality; it’s about authority.
We have a democratic system that explicitly says someone’s beliefs shouldn’t be forced in others (assuming you’re in the US). We literally have in our constitution that no religion shall be enforced. Sure, we have people who want to destroy that an enact authoritarian rule, because they think their beliefs are better than others, so this might not always be true, but for now it is.
We agree on morals by majority. Everyone agrees that murder is wrong so we make laws stating that and we punish those who dont follow. Do you call that ‘forcing morals on others’? No, because almost everyone agrees murder is wrong. But what about physical assault? Still bad. We make laws against that. What if its just slapping someone? Likely still harmful, so there are laws against that. What if its just spitting on their shoes? Might be assault might not be. What if its just calling them a name? Highly depends on what was said and in what context but obviously not everyone who calls someone a name is charged. What if its just giving them the finger? Not likely a charge. What if its just a sneer? Highly unlikely its chargeable offence.
My point is that we ALL decide at some point when harm is done and we make laws to support that and then we FORCE others to comply with it even if its not THEIR personal standard about whats considered harmful. Yes thats authority, thats how society works.
We sure as hell don’t. I don’t think something is moral or not because others agree with it or not. That’d be a pretty fucked up world if many people believed that.
No, because it’s protecting other people’s freedom. A murderer prevents others from having their own freedom. You can hurt yourself all you want, but not others without their consent. This isn’t morality, it’s (negative) freedom. It’s measurable, where morality isn’t.
All the other stuff you listed proves it’s not about morality. Most people would agree it’s immoral to do most of those acts. However, it’s (usually) only illegal when it effects other people’s rights. Sometimes people argue things enfringe on their rights to push morality too, like requiring certain clothing for example. The argument they make is always about rights though, not morality (though they may try to sway the public with a morality argument). For example, abortion. It wasn’t made illegal in a bunch of places for moral reasons. It was made illegal “to protect the rights of the zygote/fetus/baby.”
Sex work doesn’t effect anyone else’s freedom. You can choose to not engage with it if you want. Making it illegal does effect people’s freedom, and also creates a hazardous environment for sex workers. If you actually want to solve the things you’re complaining about, the only solution is to legalize it and install protections. If you’re arguing for making it illegal then you’re the one causing the issues for these sex workers. You are responsible for them not having protections, not having mental and physical healthcare, fearing going to the police when something happens, and all the rest.
You honestly think that selling your time to make money is the same as selling your BODY to make money? Please tell me your not serious about that. There are barter systems where people exchange their labor for goods without any money involved, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find a system where people sell their body for goods on regular basis.
So exactly how does one provide for one’s need for food clothing and shelter if they DONT want to sell their time? Live in the woods and forage for berries?
Again, selling your body is working in manual labor more than sex work. You literally destroy your body for it. Sex work doesn’t.
I’ve seen people need surgery for their knees by 30 because they sold their body to lift cargo. It happens incredibly regularly. As for sex work, also incredibly regularly, which I wouldn’t describe as “selling your body” but it is using your body for a service. It’s not being damaged or losing value though.
OK, first you’re implying I said you can’t sell yourself for money. I didn’t say that. You did. I just pointed out that we all do it. You only had an issue with it in regard to sex work, but for some reason don’t care for other work that takes so much more from us for less in return.
Second, there are alternative systems to capitalism that don’t require you to self yourself for survival. It isn’t a requirement for life. To see how capitalists see us, the people at work how interact with us are called human resource managers. We’re a resource to be consumed and spent to generate profit for the comoany. You’re just diluded into thinking that’s fine, but people can’t choose to do the same with sex work. Why not?
Thats where I completely disagree. There is a big emotional and psychological toll to be used by another person for money. Yeah, in 20 years your knees might be in better shape than a factory worker, but your emotions, your self esteem, your mental health will not be. The knees can be fixed with surgery. How do you fix crippled mental health? There are people who spend their lives in therapy because mommy yelled at them a lot when they were young. You think someone who has been used over and over by other people for their own pleasure is going to be in better shape than that emotionally damaged person? Absolutely not. NO ONE comes out of sex work undamaged - its literally the price of participation.
Again, you’re literally doing this if you have a job. I don’t disagree. You just only have an issue with sex. If you think this is valid, explain why sex is different.
That’s part of why we have so many issues in the US. People are selling their lives to corporations to survive, and they’re given no mental Healthcare to help them. Mental Healthcare is a thing though and it can be provided.
No one comes out of capitalism undamaged. There are some porn stars and brothel workers (with protections) who seem to be perfectly healthy though. It’s the lack of safety nets and protections that cause issues. The same thing is true for factories before we had safety nets, or any other kind of work. Sex work is work, and all work needs protections so workers aren’t abused and taken advantage of. Without it, of course there are issues. Its not because of the type of work though, it’s the lack of protections.
You have a weird issue with sex, where you think it’s “being used” if you have sex. I haven’t done it for money, but I’ve had plenty of loveless sex, and it doesn’t have any magical powers. It’s just an act.
We’re all being used every day. There’s no difference when it’s sex. You keep saying there is, but providing no reasoning other than just that it’s true because you believe it’s true.
There are a lot of sex workers who get through it all and are as perfectly healthy as the rest of us, sometimes more. Yes, there are some who don’t, but that’s true for everything. Sex work has the double issue of a lot of it not being legal and having no protections, and also attracting people who aren’t as well already. We should be doing more to make it legal so we can help them, not the opposite. Making it illegal doesn’t make it go away, it only ensures the issues you’re pointing out are more common.
Dude, I worked in an office job for more than 10 years. I didnt feel used. I didnt feel like my self esteem was compromised. I didnt feel like I had to give up my dignity for pay. Never once did anyone ask me to take off my clothes and insert X object into one of my holes so they could watch me and jerk off.
You have a very warped idea of what a regular job is like compared to sex work, but ok go ahead and convince yourself that they’re exactly the same. Dear god.
Cool. You’re in the same boat as a lot of sex workers then! However, you were used. It’s called human resources because they see us as resources to use. You can not feel used doing your work, and the same goes for all work, but if you’re doing it because you have to to survive then you are being used. You’re a whore for money. You just might be doing other acts than sex, but there’s nothing more honorable about it.
What is your problem? Is that the only way you can lose dignity in your opinion? It should be doing some you find demeaning, which is an opinion. I think people who are sycophants for people like Musk, Bezos, Trump, etc. are much less respectable than people doing sex work. We’re all whores though. They wave cash in front of our faces and we beg them for it.
No, you have a very warped idea of what sex work is. Legal sex work the workers choose their partners and get to say no to anyone or anything they want. Sure, they’ll make more money for doing certain acts, just like any other job. They aren’t the same. Just like a construction worker isn’t the same as a software engineer. They aren’t worse though. You look down on them, but you haven’t given a reason for what makes it worse inherently.