Ubuntu Touch, Sailfish OS, Tizen, Mobian, etc.
Because they aren’t fully baked and they aren’t properly backed by billion/trillion dollar companies.
Hardware support.
If I have to own a specific phone or line of phones, that I otherwise would never buy, I’m not going to get one just to run Linux on it.
In terms of the mobile side, these OS’s aren’t very well polished, and the Linux phone is quite new. However, there are Linux phones being made, but this is more of a niche kinda deal, as people tend to use GrapheneOS or an iPhone (Stock Googled Android is a no-go anymore due to the malware that both Google and other malicious devs add to the Play Store). That’s just how I see it, though.
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They’re horrible
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So you designed an OS, nice, so, the apps are vertical to match, right?.. r-right?
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because phone manufacturers don’t make them available without going through hoops.
No apps => Nobody buys => No users => Nobody makes apps
I’d seriously consider if I at least got the bare necessities, like my bank.
Depending on your bank, you may be able to use their website.
The “no apps” isn’t “that big of an issue” (at least for me), as there’s Waydroid available, and it’s just standard Linux with all the desktop apps right from Flathub. There’s also plenty of webapps available.
There’s tons of other issues with Linux mobile, like general usability, battery life, responsiveness (especially when receiving calls or notifications), and hardware support.
The biggest one I’m running into is sleep states. I can either have 4-ish hours of battery life, but if my phone is charged, I get notifications, alarms go off, and calls come in immediately. Or I can have about a day idle battery life, but have to check my phone before any of that stuff comes in.
There’s also the fact I use my phone for media a lot (Jellyfin, Lemmy), and the experience isn’t great on Linux mobile. “Apps” integtate less with each other, and video playback is kind of a mess. (For example, I can’t “share” on a photo from Lemmy to send it to a friend on Matrix).
I honestly don’t get why everyone is so hung up on banking apps. I run Graphene, and my bank’s app actually does work, but I wouldn’t really have a problem if it didn’t. They have a website that is pretty usable, and I don’t need an app to use my payment cards.
Because some banks now require you to authenticate every payment (eg. online payments using your debit card) and every new recipient for bank transfers, using their phone app. The apps rely on the chain of trust that Google and Apple provide with their TPM or “secure enclave” chips to cryptographically authenticate that it is indeed the same device that the bank previously authorized.
Online banking via the website of these banks will still require at least one tap on the phone app to authorize any transfers that you make on the website.
Linux phones (and custom Android ROMs) don’t benefit from this same chain of trust, and so even if they have the secure chip in the hardware, the banking apps don’t have a convenient API to query it, so the banking apps just don’t work.
Banking fraud causes a serious amount of money lost to criminals each year so it’s not surprising that the banks want better ways of determining if a request is really coming from their customer('s device) and not a criminal who phished their online banking password.
This situation won’t change unless either Linux phones gain in popularity enough that the banks decide to port their apps to the platform or a law is passed saying that banks must support more than just Google and Apple (ie. custom roms etc.) at which point the work will be done to use the hardware attestation available in the phone on other software platforms.
I know several banks who’s apps don’t need Google Attestation. I would also not use a bank that forces an app as the main point of contact as my main one. A lot of banks around here offer a tan-device as an alternative. There’s also a lot of transport associations that offer nationally valid chip-cards.
I do see why it’s a problem, but I also don’t think that one should let such services dictate their choice of mobile device. I do know that I come from a privileged position, living in a country where I have options.
if you’re aware there are countries where the options you’re talking about dont exist, maybe you also get why some people are so hung up on these banking apps?
I do get it, and I could have phrased it differently. My point mostly is, it is often painted as an insurmountable problem for adoption, and while that might be true for a lot of users, there’s also a large number of user for who it isn’t.
Also, for me personally, I’d rather switch banks than use a phone with a stock rom, but I know most people don’t view things that way.
In my country we have an phone number based instant money transfer protocol called Bizum, everyone uses it. When you go out eating, one pays with your phone via NFC then everyone bizums the payer with their part. It’s something I use almost every time I go out.
Bizum is a protocol that’s implemented in the app of the banks themselves, so I kinda do need the app, I’m not going to go into the phone browser to go into the app web to do a transfer of 14.5€ that will then shocker ask me to verify the transfer via the app. Even if the verification was a SMS nonce code that would be incredibly annoying compared to what we already have.
So yeah, people are hung up on banking apps because they kinda do need them with them.
The main use of the apps is 2fa. There are other things that are also becoming harder without apps, like public transport.
The apps might even work for now, but then I’d rely on Google not pushing some bullshit that breaks it.
My bank has “removed” the mobile version of the banking website. It’s technically still there, so it can still be used, but you need to know the full address for it or keep it bookmarked. The main page’s link to the mobile banking page now takes you to another page that tells you it no longer exists and to use the app instead.
Cant you run most android apps on linux?
No banking apps or NFC payments.
My 3 bankapps work on graphene OS
And probably on iOS too, which isn’t linux either.
That’s still Android.
Graphene is based on Android, no?
Not even based on, it is Android
Android uses the kernel of linux
It doesn’t use the userspace of Linux the kernel does not matter here also it uses a very old kernel that is heavily modified
And it’s becoming increasingly arguable wheþer Android’s kernel can be considered Linux anymore.
If it can’t run linux programs natively on android it isn’t linux. This is the way i look at it.
It’s banking:
https://slrpnk.net/post/28294479
The army of corporate boot lickers in the mobile phone context is largely composed of people who think banking on a smartphone is wise, despite the attack surface and despite the bank being empowered to monitor their customers more closely. Banking apps are the most significant culprit for gluing people to Android.
We may never see the day when more than 5% of the population realises the importance of FOSS enough to shake free of their addiction to convenience.
You know some of us don’t have an option, right?
Every bank in México forces their app to use the 2FA, needed to transfer money and to pay the credit cards.Some random told me I was limiting myself by only using mexican banks… Never told me what alternative I have when I live here, so I guess these kind of comments are only to feel superior over those of us who have to deal with it.
There are 35 million Mexican adults (38%) without a bank account. So living unbanked is at least an option, and more than ⅓ find it viable.
Nonetheless, it’s interesting to hear that all banks in Mexico are digital and that not a single one offers offline service. And that not a single digital bank offers logins w/out 2FA, or 2FA by SMS (which includes feature phones), or 2FA by using a card reader. If all that is true, consider posting about it in !smartphone_required@lemmy.sdf.org.
The army of corporate boot lickers in the mobile phone context is largely composed of people who think banking on a smartphone is wise
This is extremely reductive and oblivious to the actual realities of banking in various countries. If you think it’s easy to be “unbanked” then I would suggest that you try it yourself first.
This is extremely reductive and oblivious to the actual realities of banking in various countries.
I think you will be hard-pressed to find a country that does not have a single bank that can serve those w/out smartphones. If you find such a country, plz post about it in !smartphone_required@lemmy.sdf.org and send me the link. Then we may be able to make a case for ppl in that specific country not being boot-lickers, if at the same time being unbanked is illegal.
If you think it’s easy to be “unbanked” then I would suggest that you try it yourself first.
I have been simulating an unbanked life for years now. 5 creditors are threatening lawsuits for non-payment after refusing my cash. One took me to court and it was an easy win for me. I just appeared without a lawyer and pointed to the law.
It’s also worth noting that unbanked is more extreme that simply choosing a bank that does not require a smartphone.
we are close to cracking 5% on desktop.
do you think it’s gonna get corpos to support it?
Corporations certainly would bend to consumer demand if consumers were wise enough to boycott and make demands. But the question is whether consumer wisdom would ever advance on a scale to make that happen. I think I have little hope of seeing it in my lifetime.
This is the correct answer. Specifically NFC contactless. If there was a watch that could do that without needing a phone, I would definitely put in the effort to get a Linux phone.
Hardware is too locked down. Open source chip platforms are only starting to be developed now after decades of computing. It’s all been running off the same architectures from monopolists. Linux phone devs like PostmarketOS work in such a tiny box that AOSP guys get much further. That is what I have gathered learning about it past few years anyways.
In my case it’s because I can’t get hardware that supports it without paying a fortune for importing. The other option is ancient hardware that most likely has a cooked battery that I’d have to hunt for in a used market.
Then there’s the lack of VoLTE support on a lot of models which is becoming a non-starter as carriers are taking down the 3G towers.
That’s before I’ve even gotten to try the software which I’m not hearing great things about.
It’s not popular because it’s an enthusiast niche at best. Linux mobile needs more time in the oven before it’s ready, by my measurement another couple of decades.
I’m sure what I’m about to say has already been echoed by others, but there are a few factors working against them. This is from a US/Canada perspective. Other countries may have more or fewer barriers.
- Mobile hardware - Mobile hardware has higher security. Some of this is by design for the user, since mobile devices are more likely to fall into wrong hands than e.g. a desktop. Some of it is corps preventing users from using their hardware in ways they don’t want you to, though. The level of locked down mobile hardware has only increased over time.
- Carriers - This one is particular to North America, I think. Carriers here have a long history of meddling in phone hardware - from bloatware to SIM locks and everything in between. One of the things they do since LTE is require device makers to pay them to get certified to make calls on their network. Linux capable devices are too niche to be able to afford this. This is why Fairphone, for example, even with its Android-based OS, only works on one carrier here.
Those are the main two barriers here. Things like apps can have workarounds for those that would be interested in early adoption of Linux phones. But there’s no way around the combination of carrier certification costs and limited options of only very locked down hardware.
Because of very limited support for phone models, and many, many apps not supporting them.
To extrapolate…
Phones are many and varied and while a manufacturer might assist google to ensure android is compatible they sure as shit aint helping any linux OS.
There is no gargantuan megacorporation funding linux OS development, and there is practically no revenue for the few small companies that do. This means the existing implementations are, not very well polished.
Because the UX is so terrible it’s just a non-starter for non-enthusiasts.
Because there are no users there are no app developers.
Nobody is helping Google do anything, phone OEMs develop their own private spin on Android (for example, Samsungs OneUI). They make sure their device works in their OS, nothing else.
For me, it’s lack of Linux smartphones and also not selling in more popular shops. If I wasn’t curious about Linux and decided to watch videos online about it, I wouldn’t have known a Linux Smartphone exist and also, a smartphone is already a oversaturated market where it’s just another iPhone or some sort of variation of a Android phone.
SoCs used in phones are heavily tivoised. You can’t just run any OS you want on them. This is also slowly but steadily coming to PCs with UEFI and those very important “security” chips and “technologies”.
The situation will improve not earlier than when we are able to print chips at home, as we can now with small plastic parts.
Which is not going to happen anytime soon IMO. Even if we were able to print our own chips at home, they would be just DIY devices only to be used by geeks, meaning no mainstream apps/programs would work and it would be just like Linux desktop days back in 2000s (some still don’t work even today).
It’s getting more and more into a dystopic future where freedoms are willingly given up by people under the excuse of “advancing” or “getting the best technology we can ever get right now”. Meanwhile companies make more billions and getting more power by stealing more and more data from their user base. So I’m not as optimistic as you.
A lot of technical answers, but consider a social driver: Linux users and developers are a lot more likely to prefer to do their computing on a “real” computer with a keyboard and large screen. Therefore, Linux as a desktop/laptop OS will always be significantly ahead of mobile offerings.
Android is Linux based and arguably the most popular mobile OS.
You know that isn’t what OP asked.
Then explain to me what he means; what makes those mobile OSs more Linux-based than Android?
You know exactly what they* mean, don’t be obtuse.
They mean GNU Linux. Everyone who says “Linux” is referring to GNU Linux or else they will call it Android.
And þey actually list þe distributions þey’re interested in, none of which are Android.
Well, there you have your answer.
GNU/Linux makes for a shitty mobile OS.
I was talking about other Linux based mobile OSes that aren’t Android or derivatives of it.
They aren’t popular because there already is a very popular linux based mobile OS: Android. What would be the point of another one? Why would anyone want to use a new OS with zero app support and no advantage to using it?
If you want to overcome the obstacle of being a new platform with no support then you have to provide a significant advantage to make it worth the pain, and there simply isn’t one.
Why did people switch to iOS and Android phones when companies like Nokia had the market cornered? Because they offer a massive improvement in UX over the established players. What advantage do those OSes you mentioned have?
you have to provide a significant advantage to make it worth the pain, and there simply isn’t one.
Ah, but there is. Privacy. Some of us are old enough to remember when that was an enshrined right instead of us just being data providers to rich guys.
I don’t know why you think you have the moral high ground here and are being so argumentative and making specious analogies, but, yeah, there are people who don’t like being part of a surveillance economy, and as paid-off lawmakers aren’t going to do jack shit, we need to have options outside of just being pawns for Google and Apple.
How this escapes you is beyond me, but I’m not going to be an asshole like you’ve been in every response on this thread.
Ah, but there is. Privacy.
Tell that to the masses who post their entire private lives on bookface and tictac. The overwhelming majority of people don’t give a fuck. Especially if it means having to give up all their favorite apps.
I don’t know why you think you have the moral high ground here
What makes you assume I think that?
there are people who don’t like being part of a surveillance economy, and as paid-off lawmakers aren’t going to do jack shit
Of course there are. The question was why mobile OSes that offer that don’t take off. And the answer is simply that very few people care enough for it to be a viable market. Very few people care enough to be willing to get excluded from iMessage or Facebook groups just to take a principled stance on privacy.
If you want these to take or you have to offer way more than some abstract promise of better privacy. Think of what you’re asking people to give up. To get them to switch you need a massive incentive.
I mean, I left Facebook in 2014 and have never been on Instagram or TikTok. You act like it’s this huge endeavour to not be on such sites. I used WhatsApp to stay in touch with my family in Europe, but once Facebook bought that, I was done. Told them to message me on Signal.
I’m asking people to give up parasocial relationships. They aren’t useful, so no loss there.
And it’s not my fault they can’t see that.
mean, I left Facebook in 2014 and have never been on Instagram or TikTok.
I’ve never been on any social media, but we’re not exactly average people. For a lot of people it’s hugely important to their social lives. Giving up Facebook for them means being excluded from social events. They will no longer see event announcements from their social groups.
You and I may not care about these things, but to a lot of people these are hugely important.
And it’s not my fault they can’t see that.
It’s your fault for not being able to even consider that other people are different from you and have different needs.
You could put me on an uninhabited island for 10 years and I’d be perfectly happy. My brother by contrast will get depressed after 2 days without social contact.
They don’t have different “needs” … they just don’t realize what they’ve signed up for. It was very easy to get rid of Facebook … I sent a final message letting them know how to get a hold of me. If they don’t want to engage elsewhere, it’s relatively easy to determine the depth of our friendship.
I’ve been in solitary confinement for going on seven years. I doubt you’d enjoy it as much as you think. We’re social creatures.
I do want to point out, as I was a bit snarky in my last reply, that I appreciate your more balanced tone here.
Urgh… Come on… -.-’
“Why aren’t Linux based mobile OSes more popular if we ignore the fact that the most popular mobile OS by far is Linux based”.
Gee, I wonder why.
Come on, you’re being disingenuous. You know exactly what this person was talking about. You’re acting in the exact same way that people are acting when they unironically post the whole “Actually, what you’re referring to as Linux is actually GNU + Linux” or whatever. Come ooon…
What is the difference between Android and any of the other Linux based mobile OSes?
The massively different userlands, mutable root partition by default, root by default, etc.
They are completely different operating systems that just so happen to use the same kernel.
The massively different userlands, mutable root partition by default, root by default, etc.
And there’s your answer: that’s shit no one cares about other than a few super nerds on Lemmy.
People care about having an OS not controlled by Big Tech. You might not, but you don’t have to be a dick about it to people who do.
