Also, how on earth is “Fuck cars” a successful “socialist experiment”? The biggest action anyone associated with that movement is flatten a few tires from SUV’s
socialism is when I listen to NPR. capitalism is when I go to my parent’s house for Christmas. communism is when I get to program the radio presets in mom’s Honda Odyssey. social democracy is when I go to Starbucks. liberalism is when I look through the LL Bean catalogue.
Interstate Highways and similar systems are “successful” socialism, as far as I understand socialism
I must be blunt here: socialism is not about taxation. At all. Socialist communes don’t even require taxes or money to exist.
Socialism is about workers’ relationship with work.
Yeah, that’s definitely a usage of the word socialism I have heard, but it is not generally a definition most socialists or socialist parties would use and it has some issues in my opinion.
This is such a broad definition of socialism as to make it almost meaningless, as this definition fits every nation on earth today and most through history. ancient Rome used public money to fund public roads, subsidized grain for the poor, public entertainment and land grants for veterans, public aqueducts, and other public programs, yet this was 2000 years before the concept of socialism was really invented and I don’t think anyone is holding up ancient Rome as an example of a socialist society.
I would define socialism by two characteristics. One is control over the political economy by the proletariat (workers), as opposed to the bourgeoisie (capitalists/financiers/business owners). In a bourgeois run capitalist state, there is still publicly funded services, but they generally set up to benefit privately run industry (public highways, government subsidized research, police) or they are concessions won by the proletariat through class struggle (universal healthcare, social welfare programs).
The second characteristic is economic organization around common need, rather than around the pursuit of profits. This would require taking the means off production (factories, businesses, utilities, etc) out of the hands of the bourgeoisie.
Sorry mate, socialism isn’t that. Here’s a good place to start learning about what socialism is. check out Richard Wolff, a economics professor, on YouTube for some interesting lecturers about how it works in reality if you want to go a bit further.
socialism can be understood as the transitional state between a capitalist mode of production and a communist one. the US government is a 100% certified capitalist state, any project they have undertaken has nothing to do with socialism
As far as I’ve ever been aware, socialism is the use of tax dollars to provide goods or services
I’ve seen others comment but I’ll add my own two cents. You don’t know what socialism is, and that’s not a criticism of you, it’s just a fact.
What you’re describing is social democracy wherein governments allow a capitalist relationship to the means of production to exist while providing social programs and investing. Socialism and Capitalism are about the worker’s relationship to the means of production. Under capitalism Capitalists take money generated by worker’s surplus labor as profits and use these profits to create a government that will protect their power to continue stealing from their workers. Under socialism profits are not held privately but publicly, by worker’s or socialist governments that exist to redistribute the ill gotten wealth of the Capitalists.
It’s not about how many programs a government does or the taxes it collects, it’s about the workers relations to the means of production. The problem with social democracy, which Lenin pointed out over a hundred years ago in State and Revolution, is that by letting Capitalists exist they will not allow workers to take away their wealth and power democratically, they will use fascism to secure their wealth. Another problem is that these programs cannot exist for long because Capitalists are parasites and will do everything they can to privatize them and milk as much profit out of them as possible, for examples of this look at nearly every government program that exists in Europe and point to me one that works better now than it did 30 years ago before Capitalists had time to take cuts out of it, it’s a really big problem typically with healthcare programs in these countries.
Even by you’d definition of “socialism” being public infrastructure spending, how is the US highway system more successful than the Chinese High Speed Rail system?
Lines losing money is implying that the point of the lines is to make money. That is so staggeringly uninformed and capitalist minded it blows me away.
I will shock you by informing you most fish are bad at flying.
My brother in Christ, China has urbanized faster than any society in human history. They build entire cities and then move people in once they’re finished.
The people pay to maintain the rails through taxes, failing to “recoup the maintenance” just means the lines are subsidized.
By that logic if they charged no fee to use them, it would be infinitely wasteful…
Which, by the way, have you noticed most highways are free to use? Does that not make them money losers?
So are parks, and sidewalks.
I’ve never seen them criticized as wasteful. The point is not to make money with them.
but as it is the Chinese high speed rail system is indeed a successful socialist(?)/socially-funded(?) intercity transit system.
It’s funny to call America’s highways socialist and then hedge your phrasing against China’s rail system.
More genuinely, would you like me to go through the Marxian conception of socialism in a non-combative way? It looks like you’re doing your best but just aren’t familiar with the topic.
“far as I understand socialism”
We got a lot to unpack here.
Youbtalked about how all the post soviet states crumbled into disrepair. They are cpaitlaist. That is cpaitlaism. When they were not capitalist things got better. When they were cpaitlaist. Things got worse. This is basic stuff here.
There are lies, and then there are statistics, and trying to do living standard calculations about this shit with a 10% cutoff that’s including the feudal warlords who owned literally everything and were spending fuckoff amounts of money on fucking glass eggs is just dancing around the actual point here.
They went from a feudal partially industrialized backwater to space in the span of ~30 years, with a catastrophic war right in the middle. They operated for decades under siege from the rest of the world outside their relatively small and poor sphere.
I don’t like capitalism or hate socialism. I hate that the universe works in such a way that my lifestyle - no car, living with my parents, and writing on a modern computer with fiber internet access for a living, with no possessions individually worth more than $5000 and a net worth of basically zero - is not fair under capitalism AND impossible under the kind of world YOU want to live in.
You want to live in a world where my only niche in life is too luxurious for everyone else? Fuck you, I’ll just commit suicide.
Socialism is when no electronic treats? those devices you’re so protective of are almost definitely made in China or nearby already, what do you think the anti-China warmongering is going to result in if not a disruption of your treats?
your life sounds pretty miserable under capitalism, wild how we have a system which prioritizes the right of property owners to extract rents from people in perpetuity.
I’m trying to say, this isn’t about a fucking political compass to me, and I don’t have a position on that compass.
The compass shit is bullshit anyways
revolutions ALWAYS fail.
They have succeeded in the past, and it was often disabled people fighting the hardest for socialist revolution- because the status quo was killing them. Helen keller was a socialist.
My life is miserable because I have a disability that means I have to rely on others and was literally been screwed out of a happy childhood by my own government from 2001-2002. I can barely trust my government to give me enough to live on (~$20,000 CAD a year), and full-bodied lasseiz-faire capitalism would view me as human vermin, while all attempts at communism has proven to be endemically-afflicted with an authoritarian existence that would have me exterminated as “useless”.
You are in full-bodied capitalism, it’s just that it’s the people outside your national borders who are the ‘human vermin’ getting exterminated by your countries military, along with its allies. You get some meager existence in the meantime and lots of treats to enjoy.
You seem pretty worked up about this, but don’t seem to have an understanding of what socialists even want. You also don’t seem interested in learning.
I work with people who are unhoused living on the streets with far less toys than you have, I’ve know many people that didn’t make it through the last few years. You can eat my shit and hair.
while all attempts at communism has proven to be endemically-afflicted with an authoritarian existence that would have me exterminated as “useless”.
This is completely false. Socialist states aren’t the ones doing eugenics and killing the disabled. That’s fascist and liberal states doing it (I’m sure you see how MAiD is sinister). Socialist states, while not always prioritizing the issue of disability, have sought to help the disabled so that they can help in the ways they can rather than waste away in a hovel as they were left to in feudal society.
So many words to tell us you’ve read zero theory…
Also, how on earth is “Fuck cars” a successful “socialist experiment”? The biggest action anyone associated with that movement is flatten a few tires from SUV’s
socialism is when I listen to NPR. capitalism is when I go to my parent’s house for Christmas. communism is when I get to program the radio presets in mom’s Honda Odyssey. social democracy is when I go to Starbucks. liberalism is when I look through the LL Bean catalogue.
deleted by creator
I must be blunt here: socialism is not about taxation. At all. Socialist communes don’t even require taxes or money to exist. Socialism is about workers’ relationship with work.
You don’t understand socialism then, it’s not “when the government does something”
deleted by creator
Would you use a monarch’s definition of democracy to define democracy?
Do you think that definition would be fair or even accurate?
Because you are using a capitalist definition of socialism, which is just as unfair and inaccurate.
deleted by creator
Yeah, that’s definitely a usage of the word socialism I have heard, but it is not generally a definition most socialists or socialist parties would use and it has some issues in my opinion.
This is such a broad definition of socialism as to make it almost meaningless, as this definition fits every nation on earth today and most through history. ancient Rome used public money to fund public roads, subsidized grain for the poor, public entertainment and land grants for veterans, public aqueducts, and other public programs, yet this was 2000 years before the concept of socialism was really invented and I don’t think anyone is holding up ancient Rome as an example of a socialist society.
I would define socialism by two characteristics. One is control over the political economy by the proletariat (workers), as opposed to the bourgeoisie (capitalists/financiers/business owners). In a bourgeois run capitalist state, there is still publicly funded services, but they generally set up to benefit privately run industry (public highways, government subsidized research, police) or they are concessions won by the proletariat through class struggle (universal healthcare, social welfare programs).
The second characteristic is economic organization around common need, rather than around the pursuit of profits. This would require taking the means off production (factories, businesses, utilities, etc) out of the hands of the bourgeoisie.
Okay, you’re incorrect
Sorry mate, socialism isn’t that. Here’s a good place to start learning about what socialism is. check out Richard Wolff, a economics professor, on YouTube for some interesting lecturers about how it works in reality if you want to go a bit further.
socialism can be understood as the transitional state between a capitalist mode of production and a communist one. the US government is a 100% certified capitalist state, any project they have undertaken has nothing to do with socialism
I’ve seen others comment but I’ll add my own two cents. You don’t know what socialism is, and that’s not a criticism of you, it’s just a fact.
What you’re describing is social democracy wherein governments allow a capitalist relationship to the means of production to exist while providing social programs and investing. Socialism and Capitalism are about the worker’s relationship to the means of production. Under capitalism Capitalists take money generated by worker’s surplus labor as profits and use these profits to create a government that will protect their power to continue stealing from their workers. Under socialism profits are not held privately but publicly, by worker’s or socialist governments that exist to redistribute the ill gotten wealth of the Capitalists.
It’s not about how many programs a government does or the taxes it collects, it’s about the workers relations to the means of production. The problem with social democracy, which Lenin pointed out over a hundred years ago in State and Revolution, is that by letting Capitalists exist they will not allow workers to take away their wealth and power democratically, they will use fascism to secure their wealth. Another problem is that these programs cannot exist for long because Capitalists are parasites and will do everything they can to privatize them and milk as much profit out of them as possible, for examples of this look at nearly every government program that exists in Europe and point to me one that works better now than it did 30 years ago before Capitalists had time to take cuts out of it, it’s a really big problem typically with healthcare programs in these countries.
Even by you’d definition of “socialism” being public infrastructure spending, how is the US highway system more successful than the Chinese High Speed Rail system?
deleted by creator
Lines losing money is implying that the point of the lines is to make money. That is so staggeringly uninformed and capitalist minded it blows me away.
I will shock you by informing you most fish are bad at flying.
Turns out, that’s not what they were made for.
deleted by creator
My brother in Christ, China has urbanized faster than any society in human history. They build entire cities and then move people in once they’re finished.
The people pay to maintain the rails through taxes, failing to “recoup the maintenance” just means the lines are subsidized.
By that logic if they charged no fee to use them, it would be infinitely wasteful…
Which, by the way, have you noticed most highways are free to use? Does that not make them money losers?
So are parks, and sidewalks.
I’ve never seen them criticized as wasteful. The point is not to make money with them.
It’s funny to call America’s highways socialist and then hedge your phrasing against China’s rail system.
More genuinely, would you like me to go through the Marxian conception of socialism in a non-combative way? It looks like you’re doing your best but just aren’t familiar with the topic.
“far as I understand socialism” We got a lot to unpack here.
Youbtalked about how all the post soviet states crumbled into disrepair. They are cpaitlaist. That is cpaitlaism. When they were not capitalist things got better. When they were cpaitlaist. Things got worse. This is basic stuff here.
Not even just “crumbled”. They were crumbled
deleted by creator
There are lies, and then there are statistics, and trying to do living standard calculations about this shit with a 10% cutoff that’s including the feudal warlords who owned literally everything and were spending fuckoff amounts of money on fucking glass eggs is just dancing around the actual point here.
They went from a feudal partially industrialized backwater to space in the span of ~30 years, with a catastrophic war right in the middle. They operated for decades under siege from the rest of the world outside their relatively small and poor sphere.
Socialism is when no electronic treats? those devices you’re so protective of are almost definitely made in China or nearby already, what do you think the anti-China warmongering is going to result in if not a disruption of your treats?
your life sounds pretty miserable under capitalism, wild how we have a system which prioritizes the right of property owners to extract rents from people in perpetuity.
deleted by creator
The compass shit is bullshit anyways
They have succeeded in the past, and it was often disabled people fighting the hardest for socialist revolution- because the status quo was killing them. Helen keller was a socialist.
You are in full-bodied capitalism, it’s just that it’s the people outside your national borders who are the ‘human vermin’ getting exterminated by your countries military, along with its allies. You get some meager existence in the meantime and lots of treats to enjoy.
You seem pretty worked up about this, but don’t seem to have an understanding of what socialists even want. You also don’t seem interested in learning.
I work with people who are unhoused living on the streets with far less toys than you have, I’ve know many people that didn’t make it through the last few years. You can eat my shit and hair.
deleted by creator
Last I checked canada was part of the
that has been marauding around the world for the last century murdering brown people
Fuck you piss baby you’re literally the one trying to guilt everyone else into not having a revolution because you don’t want to lose video games
This is completely false. Socialist states aren’t the ones doing eugenics and killing the disabled. That’s fascist and liberal states doing it (I’m sure you see how MAiD is sinister). Socialist states, while not always prioritizing the issue of disability, have sought to help the disabled so that they can help in the ways they can rather than waste away in a hovel as they were left to in feudal society.
This is almost as good as when my roommate tried to tell me that the fact that SSI lets you buy sauces to cook with is socialism