Communism is both a mode of production, and a process. Socialist countries run by communist parties are properly communist in that they are building communism in the real world. This is why Marx states in The German Ideology that
Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.
The point isn’t that socialist countries would be in that higher mode of production if they weren’t under siege, or that they aren’t sufficiently communist, but that they must build up state power to resist this siege, and as a consequence this state power sometimes commits excesses and mistakes.
Yes, you do. You have agreed to all the relevant points for my argument.
In my argument, I made it very clear that I don’t care whether or not you want to see these nation as communist or not, just wanted to note that the arguments would start there.
But instead, my argument is that total harm cause is a flawed method because as you stated yourself and I hope you agree with yourself, the socialist state were forced into more state power to protect themselves. That paranoia and that power together cause much of the harm. Both wouldn’t have existed if they weren’t under siege, which again is what you claim. So looking at the harm of socialism/communism and comparing it with capitalism, acts like the harm of socialism wasn’t partly caused by capitalism as well. So that comparison sucks and the argument fails.
And I am fairly certain, you agree with all of this, while you might dislike the words that I used.
This community likes to remind everyone that no communist country was allowed to just be communists in peace. So there was no “proper” communist country.
What do you disagree with? Were they under siege? Or not? Were the communist countries in their “pure” state or heavily influenced by outside forces trying to destroy it? Is something in it’s “proper” state when forced into extremes?
I see, so your issue is that i talk about “purity” to highlight the corrupting force of foreign threats. So you are upset that i don’t want to place the blame for the harm entirely on the system communism/socialism, okay, if you want me to entirely blame communism for the harm that the states cause, I will. I will act like harm was purely motivated by communism and the logical consequence of communism.
My point isn’t “socialism in real life is bad, but was only forced that way because of imperialists.” My point is that I support socialism, including the development of state power required to protect socialism from sabateurs and imperialists, knowing that no implementation of state power has ever been free of sin. I acknowledge the necessity of protecting socialism, and the immense gains made by these systems for their working classes.
The fact of the matter is that imperialist countries do exist, and any socialist country must therefore develop means to protect itself. This is an internally driven necessity from solving the contradiction between imperialist and subjugated countries. It isn’t something imposed from the outside, but the inside reacting to conditions it is in.
Communism is both a mode of production, and a process. Socialist countries run by communist parties are properly communist in that they are building communism in the real world. This is why Marx states in The German Ideology that
The point isn’t that socialist countries would be in that higher mode of production if they weren’t under siege, or that they aren’t sufficiently communist, but that they must build up state power to resist this siege, and as a consequence this state power sometimes commits excesses and mistakes.
So you agree with me. Great. Good conversation.
No?
Yes, you do. You have agreed to all the relevant points for my argument.
In my argument, I made it very clear that I don’t care whether or not you want to see these nation as communist or not, just wanted to note that the arguments would start there.
But instead, my argument is that total harm cause is a flawed method because as you stated yourself and I hope you agree with yourself, the socialist state were forced into more state power to protect themselves. That paranoia and that power together cause much of the harm. Both wouldn’t have existed if they weren’t under siege, which again is what you claim. So looking at the harm of socialism/communism and comparing it with capitalism, acts like the harm of socialism wasn’t partly caused by capitalism as well. So that comparison sucks and the argument fails.
And I am fairly certain, you agree with all of this, while you might dislike the words that I used.
I was arguing against this point in particular.
What do you disagree with? Were they under siege? Or not? Were the communist countries in their “pure” state or heavily influenced by outside forces trying to destroy it? Is something in it’s “proper” state when forced into extremes?
They were absolutely proper, “purity” in constructing socialism is something liberals obsess over.
I see, so your issue is that i talk about “purity” to highlight the corrupting force of foreign threats. So you are upset that i don’t want to place the blame for the harm entirely on the system communism/socialism, okay, if you want me to entirely blame communism for the harm that the states cause, I will. I will act like harm was purely motivated by communism and the logical consequence of communism.
My point isn’t “socialism in real life is bad, but was only forced that way because of imperialists.” My point is that I support socialism, including the development of state power required to protect socialism from sabateurs and imperialists, knowing that no implementation of state power has ever been free of sin. I acknowledge the necessity of protecting socialism, and the immense gains made by these systems for their working classes.
The fact of the matter is that imperialist countries do exist, and any socialist country must therefore develop means to protect itself. This is an internally driven necessity from solving the contradiction between imperialist and subjugated countries. It isn’t something imposed from the outside, but the inside reacting to conditions it is in.