I’m thinking of moving away from US-based messengers.
Signal, telegram etc have the same problematic architectures. Of those kinds of solutions, I like Threema best, but nobody uses them (which is only a problem because of their architecture).
So I wanted to get a solution with a decentralized architecture, pretty much like the fediverse.
From what I can see, the fediverse activityPub with MLS layer project (to enable fediverse end-to-end encrypted messaging) is still in the functional documentation stage.
So, what do you think of Element as a messenger (which uses matrix protocol)?
You must log in or # to comment.
After hosting Matrix for eight years, I’ve largely given up on it. It is resource intensive, slow and always seemed unreliable.
I actually got into hosting XMPP because of that, as I really wanted something decentralised that works well.
Here’s a flyer from the Digital Independence Day (that was recently proclaimed by the Chaos Computer Club and a lot of other organisations in Germany) that shows two simple ways you can start using it:
English: https://shop.digitalcourage.de/files/xmpp-folder-engl-druck.pdf
German: https://shop.digitalcourage.de/files/xmpp-folder-Druck.pdf
French: https://shop.digitalcourage.de/files/xmpp-folder-F-druck.pdfIf any server goes down, I will not have much of an issue, as long as it is not mine. If it is a server my contacts use, I will only lose contact to a couple people, until those have access again.
It’s a very resilient network and that’s why I enjoy using it. It uses the same cryptography as Signal, the adaptation is called OMEMO.
Also, the clients run even on old phones, as they do not need a lot of resources, which helps when people have little money and also saves the environment.
It’s reliable and just works, I like those qualities in software.
Is there anything about the standard for xmpp that guarantees e2e messaging, I was unable to find anything that even claimed it had the ability. I know that practice is under attack, but while it is still legal to do so I would like to support e2e forms of communication as much as possible.
You can use it, yes. There’s OMEMO, it is based on the Signal protocol’s encryption scheme, just adapted to XMPP.
Hosted matrix for a while. It is resource greedy and the message retention was/is a mess.
Honestly, I don’t see how my folks will ever switch. WhatsApp and Signal are conceptually much easier to grasp and use.
Currently I’m glad, whenever somebody switches to signal (and I choose to fight one battle at a time).
I’m hosting my matrix server on the cheapest hetznet vps available without issue. Also I’ve never had any messages disappeare, so I’m not sure what you mean with the message retention.
I do agree it’s way too complex for the average person. I mainly use it with bridges for WhatsApp, sinal, discord, etc, with only a few native matrix contacts.
It’s super complex, I agree with you 💯 %
Have you tried this?
https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy
I’ve been hosting mine for like 4 years and haven’t had an issue
Messages get re-synced from other instances, even though you want them to be gone. Meaning uncontrolled rise of storage consumption.
I know what you mean. The requirement is that friends and family will use it, too.
How long ago was your experience with matrix?
Self-hosted and bridged: half a year.
I quit that experiment and registered an account at a generic instance. Needless to say: it is only me and some public rooms.
None of my peers engages me there. They really don’t want to waste time with registration, backup keys, and concepts.
One issue is: As rooms are decentralised, if someone posts illegal content and your server downloads it, that could lead to legal trouble, especially as you’d then also host it.
The encryption often fails, leading to the meme “Message cannot be decrypted”.
One issue is: As rooms are decentralised, if someone posts illegal content and your server downloads it, that could lead to legal trouble, especially as you’d then also host it.
That should only be an issue for media though shouldn’t it, since all plain text can be set up to be e2e.
The encryption often fails, leading to the meme “Message cannot be decrypted”.
Is that still the case, I have been using matrix for about a year now and I haven’t ever had an issue sending and receiving except for a day which the vector.org servers were down. I hear that hosting a synapse server is a pain in the ass, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet.
That should only be an issue for media though shouldn’t it, since all plain text can be set up to be e2e.
It does not matter whether you encrypt illegal content, things do not magically turn legal once they are encrypted.
Plaintext cannot be set up to be E2EE, that is a contradiction in itself. Rooms can be either unencrypted or encrypted. If they are, messages are encrypted.
I hear that hosting a synapse server is a pain in the ass, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet.
Indeed, it is. That’s why I have replaced mine with Tuwunel, much less effort and way less resource-intensive.
It does not matter whether you encrypt illegal content, things do not magically turn legal once they are encrypted.
I wasn’t suggesting it was, I was just pointing out that it wouldn’t be easily provable that you were in possession of such content.
Plaintext cannot be set up to be E2EE, that is a contradiction in itself. Rooms can be either unencrypted or encrypted. If they are, messages are encrypted.
I feel this is a bit pedantic as I would assume that you understood that I meant text messages, unless you are saying that all forms of messages, including media like images and videos, are encrypted in e2ee rooms, in which case that is information I did not have.
I was just pointing out that it wouldn’t be easily provable that you were in possession of such content.
Yeah, but I’d rather not have anything illegal than just making it less obvious. I’d rather stick to the rules.
unless you are saying that all forms of messages, including media like images and videos, are encrypted in e2ee rooms, in which case that is information I did not have.
Yes, media would be encrypted as well. Metadata is not, though. Matrix leads to quite a lot of that, unfortunately, due to the way it works.
There are usually many servers that know name and members of a chat, even though the contents are encrypted.
EDIT: I’ve been deep into hosting Matrix and XMPP for a long time, I sometimes forget which things aren’t obvious from a user’s point of view.
https://digital-justice.com/articles/skip-signal.html There’s also a lengthy GitHub comment on that topic, but I dropped the link.
That article is pretty outdated by now (about 5 years old), and a lot of the concerns have since been addressed.
It also was written before the security and memory leak issues Matrix has were widely revealed .
Different POV:
I work on large Matrix-based state infrastructure which includes collaboration with Element. In my experience their team has integrity and is competent, though the UX aspects of especially Element X could progress way faster. Imo this is in part due to the fact that their key customer segments are no longer private individual users but rather large public bureaucracies in Europe going after digital sovereignty.
Imo the key point is: You are not choosing Element but Matrix. Element is just the most well-known of many client-side messengers implementing the open standard Matrix. While Element is very active in the Matrix foundation, they cannot unilaterally change said standard.
Imo moving to matrix is a great move for personal sovereignty, even if the protocol itself is at times a little resource hungry and quirky.
“they cannot unilaterally change said standard”
They could do Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Just look how much overlap the Matrix Foundation and Element have in terms of people. They change things around pretty quickly and other client developers can barely keep up, making Element the best supported client.
Doesn’t mean it will definitely happen, but I find it concerning.
Deltachat is better for family/friends chats: https://piefed.zip/c/privacy/p/763572/looking-for-a-federated-alternative-to-signal-as-they-might-have-to-comply-with-chatcontro
For IRC replacement, Matrix indeed
Why is delta (using email protocol) better than element (using matrix protocol for messaging)? I’m a bit surprised
Matrix’s biggest issues are
- management of keys/verification of sessions
- inconsistent experiences across clients (even official ones, like Element and Element X).
The post I linked has more details about both of those points.
Also, in countries with heavy internet censorship, email mostly just works. I’ve heard DeltaChat works in China.
You see Russian people on the DeltaChat forum as well
I so much fucking love the idea of Delta chat.
I’ve used matrix on my own server since 2019. From the get go, I knew no one will immediately hop on to another service, as people are using mainly whatsapp where I’m living. Thats why matrix is really nice, I can have all those different IMs bridged to my instance, like I had back in the day I had everything bridged to irc.
So I mostly use element to chat people on irc, matrix and on whatsapp.
Element’s awfully named. It’s not as blazingly optimized nor as good (of course!) as whatsapp or signal. But it’s good enough for my use. It’s okay.
For me the bridges just stopped working after a while. Telegram first, then Signal.
Setting everything up again from scratch didn’t work either so that was confusing.
Do you have good resources to get started on setting up the bridges? I looked into it a couple months back and gave up after spending too much time reading contradicting and outdated tutorials.
Also I read that the WhatsApp bridge will break the E2E encryption for everyone in a chat, ist that true?
I only managed to convinced my wife to switch. Nobody else did. Experience is so so.
IF you are going to try it, test both Element and Element X apps. X suits me better.
Using element with my bf. Its good
I’ve been using Matrix for a few years now, locally hosting my own server and having my family and some in the extended family on there. After the switch to their new Element X clients I consider it to have been smooth sailing. Additionally, since I run my own server I also bridge in other protocols (Signal, Meta, IRC … ) resulting in having all of my communication in one client.
If you don’t want to host your own server, you can either use matrix dot org which can be a bit laggy, or try to find another one of the servers allowing public signup (there aren’t that many).
It’s nice to see bridging efforts, but for me it has never been as reliable as XMPP transports, which have been around for years and also support real forms for logging in and configuring things. :D
The mautrix bridges never worked well for me, but slidge.im is great with my own XMPP server and requires a fraction of the resources. I can only recommend that to anyone looking into bridges. :)
Ok. I’m using the Mautrix bridges and find them to work really well.
Is it still pasting cookies into chats to configure them?
Seriously, an Elenctron app just for logging in?
Why?
?!
Why would anyone ever design an Electron app just for logging in? WTF?
If you don’t want an easy solution feel free to use the more difficult one.
I use a simple and sane solution: Forms. Unfortunately, that’s not yet supported by the Matrix specification, but the XMPP standard has an XEP for that. No separate software required for login.
I hope the Matrix standard will also incorporate that idea at some point. They’ve already added so many ideas from XMPP, I’m confident that one would be especially great to also add there. :)
We also need interoperability between the two, they have very similar goals and we should decrease fracturing for IM. Just imagine how large the combined user-base could be!
There is also SimpleX. Its decentraliced, secure and has no account or user ids whatsoever. Looks nice and is easy to use aswell.
I gave SimpleX a try and the lack of multi device sync was annoying https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplex-chat/issues/444 . If you want to use it across your phone and computer you basically can’t without having two distinct accounts for each device.
Jami works better in this regard. its also P2P no accounts, just a cartographic key as your identifier and a optional name server if you want to map keys to usernames (doesn’t need to be used). Cross device sync works pretty well in my experience. IOS is another story though. They have an app but I had a lot of issues with people on IOS not receiving message notifications.
